another AFCI nuisance trip question

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Adamjamma

Senior Member
Thanks... It is hard in a way because I need to learn British and still keep up to date with international as well. Plus listen for any changes in Jamaica, which never seems to publish a code but instead expects you to simply know what is correct.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks... It is hard in a way because I need to learn British and still keep up to date with international as well. Plus listen for any changes in Jamaica, which never seems to publish a code but instead expects you to simply know what is correct.
Is there code being enforced in Jamaica? Is there licensing requirements?

Places like that you are sort of on your own from what I have read. Even if there is any laws they are not being enforced, and you only get in trouble if your work injured/killed someone or resulted in property damage and they bring up litigation against you, though the legal systems are not the same as they are in the US so I don't even know how likely you even are going to have civil litigation on such matters, I bet the plaintiff would need pretty convincing evidence before they would proceed with it.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
Actually, if your property is already connected to the utility or is not getting a service upgrade for higher wattage, then it basically seems like there is no code enforcement or inspections. I am building, non commercial, and more than a sixty amp service, so I have to do a detailed electrical plan, get it inspected, get the property inspected and signed off, then get the utility connected. Plus, the requirement now, due to meter maids complaints, is the metermust be at the property line, then the panels, due to fire department complaints, must be accessible at each floor for services on that floor... so I have to have a main panel and then a sub panel on each floor... makes it easier to design for pv later, but, a mess for right now..lol...
the number of people have called me and I find no grounds in outlets, or three 1.5 wires on a breaker in the panel, loose breakers wiggling around, the more I prefer dealing with UK wiring and rules. Had a neighbor called me because when they ran their ceiling fan all the lights cut off... but the ceiling fan worked fine... never could figure that one out. Just pulled the wires and ran two circuits instead. The switch block area was so much a mess and no extra wire left to fix it.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
GE is one of two manufacturers that took the GFP out of their product

RJ, Who is the other manufacturer? Don't guess. Provide us a manufacturer's document, please.

(I'm pretty sure this is something that can't be demonstrated.)
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
RJ, Who is the other manufacturer? Don't guess. Provide us a manufacturer's document, please.

(I'm pretty sure this is something that can't be demonstrated.)
Why not?

All one needs to do is connect over 30 mA of load from "hot" to a ground(ed) conductor outside of protected circuit, if it trips then there is likely GFP.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Because there are no milliamps in a document, kwired! ! !

Show me a manufacturer's document, not by GE, that says their AFCI has NO ground fault sensing component.
OoooKay.

Seems simple to me that if you introduce an intentional fault above the trip threshold of the device that it should trip if present and functioning correctly regardless of how many words they can spell correctly or have the ability to use proper grammar on some document. :huh:

The people that say the only way to test a GFCI or AFCI is to press the test button on the device are wrong. That may be the only recommended way to test them, but if you introduce a condition that is supposed to trip it I sure would expect it to trip. Doesn't offer much protection when you accidentally introduce same condition and it doesn't trip - that is when you are supposedly depending on it to (possibly) save a life.

So the GFP protection level incorporated into said devices is supposedly at the 30 mA level - if you intentionally connected more then 30 mA of load to the EGC instead of the neutral of a protected circuit and it does trip, one would presume it must have at least 30 mA GFP I would think. If it doesn't trip it either has no such function or isn't working.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
OoooKay.

Seems simple to me that if you introduce an intentional fault above the trip threshold of the device that it should trip if present and functioning.

Kwired, you completely threadjacked my question to RJ. Nobody was talking about what you are going off on.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Kwired, you completely threadjacked my question to RJ. Nobody was talking about what you are going off on.

Your question of who, still stands. You said it can't be demonstrated, I disagreed with that. Could I have been a little simpler, maybe, you still would have rejected my demonstration:p
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Your question of who, still stands. You said it can't be demonstrated, I disagreed with that.
You did not disagree with the demonstrating of a manufacturer's document saying an AFCI has no ground fault sensing component.

I'm asking for the manufacturer's document. That's the whole point. Your field testing and a buck will only get a cup of coffee.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You did not disagree with the demonstrating of a manufacturer's document saying an AFCI has no ground fault sensing component.

I'm asking for the manufacturer's document. That's the whole point. Your field testing and a buck will only get a cup of coffee.
If I found a document I would have copied it or posted a link to it, maybe I have a different understanding of what "demonstrate" means?

What I suggested doesn't necessarily confirm what you are after, but does give a pretty good idea of whether that feature is there.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
You did not disagree with the demonstrating of a manufacturer's document saying an AFCI has no ground fault sensing component.

I'm asking for the manufacturer's document. That's the whole point. Your field testing and a buck will only get a cup of coffee.
I don’t have the manufacturers documents but, if a manufacturer such as Siemens makes AFCI, gfci, and combination breakers, then would not that suggest that unless the breaker is marked for gfci or combined, then it does not have gfci? Or are we just purchasing combination units to waste money?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I don’t have the manufacturers documents but, if a manufacturer such as Siemens makes AFCI, gfci, and combination breakers ( I suspect you mean "Dual Function AFCI/GFCI" -- Al H ), then would not that suggest that unless the breaker is marked for gfci or combined, then it does not have gfci? Or are we just purchasing combination units to waste money?
My hope is that someone will actually have a manufacturer's document showing that that manufacturer's Combination-Type AFCI has no ground fault sensing component. Manufacturer's proof would be a game changer for me.

There has been a recurring claim that pops up from time to time that a second manufacturer, other than GE, has removed ground fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI circuit breakers. . . . but, as yet, no one can document it.

Adamjamma, Kwired's threadjack about field testing to show ground fault sensing is completely off point, and is really confusing a simple question of mine to Romex Jockey. "Romex Jockey, please tell us who the second manufacturer (of non-GFP Combination-Type AFCI breakers) is and include manufacturer's documentation of it."
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Adamjamma, Kwired's threadjack about field testing to show ground fault sensing is completely off point, and is really confusing a simple question of mine to Romex Jockey. "Romex Jockey, please tell us who the second manufacturer (of non-GFP Combination-Type AFCI breakers) is and include manufacturer's documentation of it."

Al, i've investigated afci's ,along with sorts that have a lot more grey matter than i do for decades.

I've also bench tested most brands myself, that and a dime might get me a cuppa joe...:)

What you're asking for is clarity and transparency from a manufacturer , so have many ,including a number of litigant entities, the original nema afci team leader, nfpa EE's, as well as this forum's host

There is no formal 110.3B complaint or explanation process, and i doubt there is ever going to be one, despite a world of editorials and tech documents alluding to whatever bias they hail from

So , i'll give you MY take ,

AFCI's, GFCI, RCD, LCDI's, etc have one common key component

this>>>>

B1157632935.jpg


No matter how much electronic wizardry one lumps onto it, a toroid can ONLY sense what a toroid can sense

a 6, 30, or whatever ma trip is merely whatever resistive element is placed within it's capabilities

some manufacturers will differ


that's my story, and i'm stickin' to it

thx

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Al, i've investigated afci's ,along with sorts that have a lot more grey matter than i do for decades.

I've also bench tested most brands myself, that and a dime might get me a cuppa joe...:)

What you're asking for is clarity and transparency from a manufacturer , so have many ,including a number of litigant entities, the original nema afci team leader, nfpa EE's, as well as this forum's host

There is no formal 110.3B complaint or explanation process, and i doubt there is ever going to be one, despite a world of editorials and tech documents alluding to whatever bias they hail from

So , i'll give you MY take ,

AFCI's, GFCI, RCD, LCDI's, etc have one common key component

this>>>>

B1157632935.jpg


No matter how much electronic wizardry one lumps onto it, a toroid can ONLY sense what a toroid can sense

a 6, 30, or whatever ma trip is merely whatever resistive element is placed within it's capabilities

some manufacturers will differ


that's my story, and i'm stickin' to it

thx

~RJ~
The other key component(s) is the logic circuits that monitor current coming from that coil be it directly or indirectly.

Does the GE AFCI with no GFP component have one? If it does it certainly isn't for detecting differential current in the two circuit conductors, that is what GFP is. AFCI is about detecting certain current "signatures" whether they come via such a coil or not isn't it?

To meet listing standards the AFCI's all once had to have some GFP component within them, GE has apparently found a way to make them meet the listing without that component. Others maybe have as well but have other reasons they think the GFP still needs to be in there, IDK just a guess.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Al, . . .What you're asking for is clarity and transparency from a manufacturer . . .

No, I'm asking you.

"Who is the second manufacturer, other than GE, that makes a Combination-Type AFCI breaker that doesn't incorporate a ground fault sensing component?" -- You claimed there is one, in your early post in this thread.

GE is proudly selling its CAFCI by featuring the things it can do because of the absence of ground fault sensing, and those "things" are very interesting and helpful to me when working AFCIs into a dwelling with existing wiring.

If GE uses ground fault sensing absence as a selling point, I'd expect another manufacturer would as well. . .hence my expectation that there would be some kind of document.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Fellas,

as i stated, UL1699 is not clear,
:blink:

GE is one of two manufacturers that took the GFP out of their product
:?:?:?:?

You find UL1699 not clear, whatever that means to you, yet you say there are "two manufacturers" . . .


Again RJ, who are YOU saying the second manufacturer is?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The answer is in RJ's link on page 4 ;):


https://goodsonengineering.com/wp-c...-AFCI-EFFECTS-ON-ARC-MAPPING-A-FIRE-SCENE.pdf

A-M is a Square D AFCI, E1-E6 is a Cutler Hammer AFCI. ;)
:?:?:blink::blink: Page Four has a table and color pictures. . .??? I can find nothing in the entire EIGHT page article that says: "Romex Jockey is saying XXXXX (a manufacturer) has removed GFP from their AFCI."

To the contrary, I can read:
More specifically, manufacturers have included the following types of features in their various circuit protection devices:
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI)
Ground Fault Equipment Protection (GFEP)
Grounded Neutral Sensor (GNS)
Most are familiar with the GFCI circuit protection device, which responds to a current imbalance of 5 mA or more between hot and neutral. The GFEP is similar, but is NOT listed for shock protection – a typical imbalance or trip value is 30 to 50 mA. The GNS senses a condition whereby the ground and neutral are shorted together downstream; when this happens, the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) is electrically in parallel with the neutral, allowing the EGC to carry current in normal operation – a condition that is absolutely forbidden by the NEC.
Any one of these features (GFCI, GFEP, GNS) may be present in the specific circuit protection device which is associated with the circuits being examined at a scene. The circuit protection device can be tripped in association with any one of these features in reaction to the fire, along with the AFCI circuitry, as well as from direct heat impingement on the device.
Neither a confirmation nor a denial of a second manufacturer of an AFCI without ground fault sensing.

Romex Jockey has unambiguously stated that there is a second manufacturer, other than GE, that has removed ground fault sensing from their Combination-Type AFCI.

Who is the second manufacturer?
 
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