Xmas lights in a restaurant

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GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
I was eating at a restaurant that I had not been in in about 1 year. I noticed they had the same Xmas lights strung through the ceiling. Is this an NEC violation?
 
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inspector 102

Senior Member
Location
Northern Indiana
Wayne - Although I agree with you entirely, I had a reception hall that wanted to leave these style lights hanging for weekend use. The Deputy State Fire Marshall cited them while reviewing for an entertainment permit. The owner filed for a variance through Dept. of Fire and Building and stated that the periodic use of the lights would equal 1 years time as compared to 90 days continuos use under the listing. The Dept. of Fire and Building came back and said there was no requirement for a variance, but never said what requirements would be applicable. Locally, because of the limited use, we allowed them to be changed every year and must have a label attached at the plug end on the last date changed. Still room for "fudging", but comfortable with the arrangement.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I disagree with the previous responses. The lights themselves do not constitute an electrical installation. The installation to which the 90 day limit applies is the manner of providing power to them. If there is a permanently and properly installed receptacle outlet into which the lights are plugged, then they can stay there forever. It is no different than setting a lamp upon a coffee table, plugging it into the nearest receptacle, and leaving it there for years. The lamp is not the "electrical installation," the receptacle is.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Generally yes, it would be a 110.3 violation because of the temporary usage in the UL listing for Christmas lights.
I have never seen the listing information, and cannot confirm that it declares the usage to be temporary. Anyone have a link?

 

hurk27

Senior Member
Thanks jumper,
Remember guys this doesn't apply to rope light system used in many places for the same purpose.

The photo in the OP almost looks like rope lights, because of the all green color?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Wayne - Although I agree with you entirely, I had a reception hall that wanted to leave these style lights hanging for weekend use. The Deputy State Fire Marshall cited them while reviewing for an entertainment permit. The owner filed for a variance through Dept. of Fire and Building and stated that the periodic use of the lights would equal 1 years time as compared to 90 days continuous use under the listing. The Dept. of Fire and Building came back and said there was no requirement for a variance, but never said what requirements would be applicable. Locally, because of the limited use, we allowed them to be changed every year and must have a label attached at the plug end on the last date changed. Still room for "fudging", but comfortable with the arrangement.

I surprised at that response from our state as at the 2006 state IAEI meeting in Lafayette,In. this was brought up and the UL listing was sited as the reason this wasn't allowed, we all know it's done all the time and over looked by most since many don't want to pay the price for permanently installed rope lights, but Raleigh Kouns (our state AHJ retired now) did state because of the UL listing they shouldn't be used in this fashion.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I ran into a similar issue with a business that wanted to place such lights outside on a permanent basis. They desired to do things 'right,' and wondered if there was a 'heavy duty commercial type' of decorative lighting available.

Let's face it: there's simply no other way to weave lights into your landscaping. It does produce a much desired decorative effect.

The problem is thet UL has no listing or category that would apply to a permanent installation. Absent an appropriate product category, no manufacturer has any reason to submit a product for listing. The NEC does not directly address the topic. So, these common displays are 'illegal' by default.

Maybe we need to propose that the NEC correct this oversight. Arguments pro/con aside, this seems to be the exact reason for the proposal process.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I ran into a similar issue with a business that wanted to place such lights outside on a permanent basis. They desired to do things 'right,' and wondered if there was a 'heavy duty commercial type' of decorative lighting available.

Let's face it: there's simply no other way to weave lights into your landscaping. It does produce a much desired decorative effect.

The problem is thet UL has no listing or category that would apply to a permanent installation. Absent an appropriate product category, no manufacturer has any reason to submit a product for listing. The NEC does not directly address the topic. So, these common displays are 'illegal' by default.

Maybe we need to propose that the NEC correct this oversight. Arguments pro/con aside, this seems to be the exact reason for the proposal process.

A'hh but they do make such a product that is UL recognized, it's commonly called rope lights as I stated before:

Flexible lighting

And they do make them for wet and damp locations, and can be hard wired.
 
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renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Oh, I'm sure you can do all manner of things with rope lights. Or track lights, or whatever. Alas, lighting is very much an area where 'the look' matters - and there are no rope lite 'nets,' 'icecicles,' or anything else that has the effect. At least, that's what the customers say.

Likewise, my comment about 'there being no ...' was based upon discussions I've had with various UL personnel. There's a 'code gap' here.

Maybe another example can be used. I have a lamp on my desk that's been there for years- yet no one considers this a misapplication of 'temporary.' These holiday lights were assumed to be temporary, but are being used for longer periods. UL's not about to create or change a category without a nudge from the code comittee.

I suppose you could say the holiday lights are just appliances, not part of the structure, etc. Such was pretty much excluded when the NEC chose to specifically address holiday lighting. That, in turn, was inspired by a gent who published many pictures of long-standing installations that were rendered dangerous by age, abuse, and weather.

What a tangled web we weave ...
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Oh, I'm sure you can do all manner of things with rope lights. Or track lights, or whatever. Alas, lighting is very much an area where 'the look' matters - and there are no rope lite 'nets,' 'icecicles,' or anything else that has the effect. At least, that's what the customers say.

Likewise, my comment about 'there being no ...' was based upon discussions I've had with various UL personnel. There's a 'code gap' here.

Maybe another example can be used. I have a lamp on my desk that's been there for years- yet no one considers this a misapplication of 'temporary.' These holiday lights were assumed to be temporary, but are being used for longer periods. UL's not about to create or change a category without a nudge from the code committee.

I suppose you could say the holiday lights are just appliances, not part of the structure, etc. Such was pretty much excluded when the NEC chose to specifically address holiday lighting. That, in turn, was inspired by a gent who published many pictures of long-standing installations that were rendered dangerous by age, abuse, and weather.

What a tangled web we weave ...

And yes we are the tangled mess between the customer and the NEC/UL and the inspector, and the logistics of what code compliant method is available that will satisfy the customer.
The last three words above is one reason I don't like to pick out the lighting for a house.

My post above was just to point out that rope lights are listed as code compliant permanent lighting that can be installed in place of Christmas lights in many places where ambient lighting is wanted, I agree they wont be attractive for all occasions to customers but we have to play the cards we are dealt.
 

inspector 102

Senior Member
Location
Northern Indiana
Wayne -
The variance was submitted as 07-01-5 through the state. I was suprised that it was discarded as quickly as it was without any state action. The orginal citation came from the Fire Marshalls office and he coordinated the application with them. I personnaly hate christmas lights and throw them away each year after my wife makes me put them up. As a firefighter in my spare time, I hate to see the lights attached to the side of the building year round even if they are not lit. UV has a nasty affect along with the wind damage on the samll conductors. It sure is fun to have these discussions from time to time and try to understand the different point of views from others.
 

GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
Thanks jumper,
Remember guys this doesn't apply to rope light system used in many places for the same purpose.

The photo in the OP almost looks like rope lights, because of the all green color?

Sorry for the poor quality picture but they were string lights with miniature bulbs about every foot or so. My concern was if someone had to work in the ceiling with something metal and pierced the wire then they might get electrocuted. I wouldnt work in the ceiling without unplugging them all myself.
 

220wire

Member
Too bad this scenerio isn't defined more to make it a violation. If it was then maybe they would have to have a qualified person install it.
 

chevyx92

Senior Member
Location
VA BCH, VA
I disagree with the previous responses. The lights themselves do not constitute an electrical installation. The installation to which the 90 day limit applies is the manner of providing power to them. If there is a permanently and properly installed receptacle outlet into which the lights are plugged, then they can stay there forever. It is no different than setting a lamp upon a coffee table, plugging it into the nearest receptacle, and leaving it there for years. The lamp is not the "electrical installation," the receptacle is.

I agree .
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
590.3(B) sounds prety cut and dried to me. 90 days for holiday lighting.
I don't keep a code book at home, but I am fairly sure that is not what it says. It is not, "90 days for holiday lighting." It is "90 days for temporary installations." Holiday lights are an example of an item of utilization equipment that might be served by a temporary installation (time limit applies) or by a permanent installation (time limit does not apply).

 

jumper

Senior Member
I don't keep a code book at home, but I am fairly sure that is not what it says. It is not, "90 days for holiday lighting." It is "90 days for temporary installations." Holiday lights are an example of an item of utilization equipment that might be served by a temporary installation (time limit applies) or by a permanent installation (time limit does not apply).

Here is the reference:

590.3 Time Constraints.
(A) During the Period of Construction. Temporary electric
power and lighting installations shall be permitted during
the period of construction, remodeling, maintenance,
repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or
similar activities.
(B) 90 Days. Temporary electric power and lighting installations
shall be permitted for a period not to exceed 90 days
for holiday decorative lighting and similar purposes.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Thanks, Derek. And we see that it is, as I said, the "installation" that is time limited. The thing you plug in is utilization equipment. The thing you plug it in to is the installation.
 
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