Fuzzy logic about code compliance?

Status
Not open for further replies.

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I have a client that contracts us to perform fire alarm test and inspections. When we document an obvious deficiency that was in place from the original installation, they tell us it's not a problem becuase he AHJ approved it.

Here's a small example: smoke detector in an electrical room, mounted on the wall, 16' AFF. The ceiling height is 30'. If it was installed like that and approved, we leave it alone, but document it.

I have objected quietly, but, that's how its being done.


Your thoughts?? (again, I notify the owner in writing of what was found)
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I don't understand how the AHJ is excepting copies of your reports listing the defficiencies unless they have not adopted the IFC or some similar code.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I don't understand how the AHJ is excepting copies of your reports listing the defficiencies unless they have not adopted the IFC or some similar code.

We are contracted to leave the report in the facp and submit it to the customer only. We are not required to submit directly the AHJ, but I have sent a few.

Most local AHJ's have adopted some IBC, but not IFC.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I do what I am hired to do and move on.

It is not up to me to strong arm a customer into spending their money.

Iwire, i had your posts in my when I asked. I am doing when what we are paid for. I only submit the report when required by local requirements.

Just looking to see what others think, so thank you.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Iwire, i had your posts in my when I asked. I am doing when what we are paid for. I only submit the report when required by local requirements.

Just looking to see what others think, so thank you.

Wow, I was distracted when I posted that. What I meant was: I had your previous posts on similar issues on mind when I made the OP. I am only doing what we are paid to do, not snitch.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
This isn't about snitching, nor about trying to cost the owner more money. It's about safety. There is, as I believe we all know, a difference between a "code violation" and a "code violation that presents a very real and immediate safety concern." In both cases, I believe we have an obligation to inform the owner. In the later case, it is something that (again, I believe) requires us to inform the owner in writing. In the specific example described above, a detector in the wrong location could mean a fire could go undetected for a significant period of time. That is enough, in my book, to present me with the ethical duty to write a note to the owner.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
This isn't about snitching, nor about trying to cost the owner more money. It's about safety. There is, as I believe we all know, a difference between a "code violation" and a "code violation that presents a very real and immediate safety concern." In both cases, I believe we have an obligation to inform the owner. In the later case, it is something that (again, I believe) requires us to inform the owner in writing. In the specific example described above, a detector in the wrong location could mean a fire could go undetected for a significant period of time. That is enough, in my book, to present me with the ethical duty to write a note to the owner.

Thanks Charlie. I always document what I find. I also stress significant or pressing issues. I am not busting chops because the spacing of horn/strobe is a few feet off, or a piece of cable isnt protected below 7' in a dedicated electrical room.

The code is a minimum, right? The least I can do, is inspect for the least that should be done.
 

Strife

Senior Member
I assume if you're inspecting it, you have to certify it.
In that case I wouldn't certify it, unless the customer provides the AHJ approval.
If that's not the case, .... what IWire said.
I see every day people driving like maniacs, do you call the police every time you see a reckless driver? Car crashes kill more people than fires, so using your logic we should call in every reckless driver? I'm not being facetious, just trying to make a point.

This isn't about snitching, nor about trying to cost the owner more money. It's about safety. There is, as I believe we all know, a difference between a "code violation" and a "code violation that presents a very real and immediate safety concern." In both cases, I believe we have an obligation to inform the owner. In the later case, it is something that (again, I believe) requires us to inform the owner in writing. In the specific example described above, a detector in the wrong location could mean a fire could go undetected for a significant period of time. That is enough, in my book, to present me with the ethical duty to write a note to the owner.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I assume if you're inspecting it, you have to certify it.
In that case I wouldn't certify it, unless the customer provides the AHJ approval.
If that's not the case, .... what IWire said.
I see every day people driving like maniacs, do you call the police every time you see a reckless driver? Car crashes kill more people than fires, so using your logic we should call in every reckless driver? I'm not being facetious, just trying to make a point.


Point well taken, as I am that reckless driver :grin:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
. . . do you call the police every time you see a reckless driver?
Driving is not my profession, and I do not have a commitment to a code of professional ethics that involves driving. I have seen a lot of people do a lot of dangerous things, a lot of stupid and dangerous things. As long as those things do not appear likely to injure or kill someone during the few seconds that I observe the behavior, I am most likely to grimace and move on.


But I am signatory to a code of professional ethics; it comes with my license. I am well aware, and highly confident, that most members of this forum also have a high sense of professional ethics, whether or not your license requires you to sign a statement that obliges you to have that sense. So I do not place myself above any of you in this regard. I simply state that my obligation is to inform the owner, and then and only then can I walk away.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Charlie it is my understanding that nhfire was notifying the the customer.

In my opinion unless it is a grievous violation my job is done once I have notified the customer. The fire alarm test report that is turned over to the customers are fairly detailed with the deficiencies clearly noted. In some towns I am required to turn in a copy of the report to the AHJ, I wish all areas had that policy.
 

Strife

Senior Member
And so am I Charlie.
I'll go one further, I do a lot of jobs where some work (not related to what I do) are in violation. I inform the customer about it, and I tell them the inspector might frown on it or not. But there's no way in hell I would point them to the inspector, as long as it's not related to what I have to certify. Most of my work comes from referrals. Sorry, but doing the above will make ME look like I try to generate work for myself. You know, like that car repairman, who told you you need to spend 3K to fix your car when you only wanted an oil change? How many people will you recommend that repairman to?

Driving is not my profession, and I do not have a commitment to a code of professional ethics that involves driving. I have seen a lot of people do a lot of dangerous things, a lot of stupid and dangerous things. As long as those things do not appear likely to injure or kill someone during the few seconds that I observe the behavior, I am most likely to grimace and move on.

But I am signatory to a code of professional ethics; it comes with my license. I am well aware, and highly confident, that most members of this forum also have a high sense of professional ethics, whether or not your license requires you to sign a statement that obliges you to have that sense. So I do not place myself above any of you in this regard. I simply state that my obligation is to inform the owner, and then and only then can I walk away.
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Just had new fire panels, smokes, a/v's installed in both of my buildings. Contractor gave me a list in advance of the glaring deficiencies that the FM would catch. Management decided to let it go, to be written up by the FM, which most items were, which was understaandable from my point of view. This was a straight device-for-device changeout, but the FM wrote us up for no a/v's in mech. rooms, and a synch. issue, and some other things. Contractor told me that he was going to discuss this with the FM after the job is done, believes they went a little overboard, but as I pointed out to him, with replacing a main panel/devices, you open yourself up to having to upgrade to current specs/code(buildings were built under '96 BOCA), just like permitting a job, and an inspector making you bring up everything in the affected area up to current code. I'm glad my fire system, and sprinkler contractors bring up items like this. Reporting these to the FM is another matter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top