GFCI/AFCI outlet question

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e.man91

Member
Location
California
I know in years past, all AFCI circuit breakers could not share a neutral, so you couldnt run a 12/3 for 2 circuits. Now ive seen some that can share a neutral, but the manufacturer requires you to use a handle tie.

My question though is regarding the GFCI/AFCI outlets. Can these be used to protect 2 20amp circuits run with 12/3? Basically im trying to avoid using the full sized circuit breakers in a tight sub-panel.

Thanks.
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
The only way you can use a afci on 2 circuits that share a neutral is to use a double pole afci not just two afci single poles with a handle tie.

I just re-read your post, what manufacturer claims this?
 

MattS87

Senior Member
Location
Yakima, WA
I know in years past, all AFCI circuit breakers could not share a neutral, so you couldnt run a 12/3 for 2 circuits. Now ive seen some that can share a neutral, but the manufacturer requires you to use a handle tie.

My question though is regarding the GFCI/AFCI outlets. Can these be used to protect 2 20amp circuits run with 12/3? Basically im trying to avoid using the full sized circuit breakers in a tight sub-panel.

Thanks.

Your profile says you are a GC. Are you allowed to do electrical work in your area?
 

e.man91

Member
Location
California
GE is the manufacturer, heres a link to the specs on the breaker they claim to use for this situation.

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/DEQ-234?TNR=FAQs|DEQ-234|PDF&filename=DEQ-234.PDF

Yes we are allowed to do electrical work on our own GC projects, however not on highrise residential or hospitals. Probably some larger commercial too however small commercial and residential is no problem.

A clarification may help, its for an outdoor kitchen, and the customer wants the smallest subpanel possible, so I settled on a 6/12, It was a main lug, so I have a 60amp breaker installed as main, which takes 2 spaces. Im trying to avoid using fullsized breakers and use tandems. I have no problem running 12/2 if its an issue, but just curious if the outlets would work in this situation to save some wire.
 
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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
AFCI protects the entire branch circuit from where the new wire originates. So if new from the panel you cannot get away with out using a full sized breaker.
Gfci can be anywhere in the circuit as long as it protects the outlets requiring such protection are so protected.

Yes GE is the only ones that do not require a 2 pole for a MWBC.

I don't think AFCI is required outside.
 

e.man91

Member
Location
California
AFCI protects the entire branch circuit from where the new wire originates. So if new from the panel you cannot get away with out using a full sized breaker.
Gfci can be anywhere in the circuit as long as it protects the outlets requiring such protection are so protected.

Yes GE is the only ones that do not require a 2 pole for a MWBC.

I don't think AFCI is required outside.

I may question the inspector, he said he’s considering it a kitchen

Do you mind explaining why an afci outlet cannot be used? I understand them to work the same as gfci outlets, protecting all devices “downstream”? I just want to know if two afci outlets can be used on a mwbc or if the shared neutral will cause problems between the two outlets.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I may question the inspector, he said he’s considering it a kitchen

Do you mind explaining why an afci outlet cannot be used? I understand them to work the same as gfci outlets, protecting all devices “downstream”? I just want to know if two afci outlets can be used on a mwbc or if the shared neutral will cause problems between the two outlets.

The afci recpt outlets differ from the afci breakers in that the load side shares a nuetral on the breaker model only>

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publib...lename=DET-719 CAFCI Shared Neutral Guide.pdf

~RJ~
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I may question the inspector, he said he’s considering it a kitchen

Do you mind explaining why an afci outlet cannot be used? I understand them to work the same as gfci outlets, protecting all devices “downstream”? I just want to know if two afci outlets can be used on a mwbc or if the shared neutral will cause problems between the two outlets.
Remember, the service to your building is in essence, a MWBC. Using AFCI or GFCI outlets on the load side of another MWBC will not make a difference in their operation.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
For AFCI protection you must install the AFCI device where the circuit originates if new ( in the Panel) or at the first outlet of the new wire from the existing.
That is unless you can use one of the exceptions, which you probably cannot.

As far as the AFCI device outside not required regardless if a kitchen type area as it is not inside the dwelling unit it is outside the dwelling unit. Ask for a code reference. Ask this same inspector if he requires AFCI protection for other outside areas( probably not) .
See code below,
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices
installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,
sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry
areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of
the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6):


Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and
independent living facilities for one or more persons,
including permanent provisions for living, sleeping,
cooking, and sanitation.
 
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