Electrical Inspectors Turning Down UL Listed Equipment

Status
Not open for further replies.

tedwards

New member
I have a industrial control panel on site that is a UL-508A listed assembly. The electrical inspector came on site, opened the control panel and had some issues with wire sizing of some tap conductors inside the panel. Since the control panel is UL listed how can the inspector make me change wiring internal to the panel? How is this different than an electrical inspector coming into your home and tearing apart your clothes dryer saying that you need to make wiring changes to it?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Did the inspector put on the appropriate protective equipment, based on the arc flash hazard level that applies to the panel? :roll:

An inspector has no business opening a UL listed component to see what is inside, or to pass judgement on the internal wiring. Take a look at the second paragraph of NEC article 90.7.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
An inspector has no business opening a UL listed component to see what is inside, or to pass judgement on the internal wiring. Take a look at the second paragraph of NEC article 90.7.

Of course they have the authority to do so, they have the task of deciding if the equipment is being used as listed and if modifications have been made.

It happens that here in MA 90.4 has been modified to saay that inspectors MUST accept listed equipment if used per it's listing.

All 90.7 tells us is that an inspector does not have to look at listed equipment, it does not say they shall not.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Of course they have the authority to do so, they have the task of deciding if the equipment is being used as listed and if modifications have been made.

It happens that here in MA 90.4 has been modified to saay that inspectors MUST accept listed equipment if used per it's listing.

All 90.7 tells us is that an inspector does not have to look at listed equipment, it does not say they shall not.

I agree, from a straight NEC perspective an AHJ does not have to approve a piece of equipment just because it is listed.

As an inspector I would never ask an electrician to modify the factory wiring of a listed piece of equipment.

If I were to question the internal wiring of a listed piece of equipment then I would send a report of my issues to the listing agency that listed the equipment.

Chris
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
If all equipment approved by the AHJ had to be built to the NEC then nothing would ever get installed. :roll:
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I have turned down UL listed equipment before and have found out that I was right both times. Just because there is a UL label on it, does not mean it was built to UL standards.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
John, are you saying that the UL labels were falsified, or that the manufactured item did not match the tested item?
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
John, are you saying that the UL labels were falsified, or that the manufactured item did not match the tested item?

Actually both, one was on some light fixtures that I knew there was no way that they could have been approved like they were so I took one to our local UL rep and he was none to happy that someone would build something like that and put their label on it.

The other one was a sign that had no labels on it when I went to inspect it, then they suddenly appeared the next day, of course with out a UL rep present. So when I called them out to look at it, they wrote a 4 page correction list, including things like the wrong gauge metal and the wrong type plastic.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the hat...

The UL 508 standards for wire sizing INSIDE of a control panel assembly are different than the NEC requirements for wire sizing for INSTALLING equipment. That has, and always will be, the case and a point of contention between UL and the NEC. UL has papers (or at least used to) addressing this issue, they also make a point of trying to educate electrical inspectors through IAEI seminars etc. (or again, used to). NEC wire sizing is based on worst case scenarios of what might happen someday, UL control panel (and switchgear, MCCs etc by the way) internal wire sizing is based on known engineered standards.

Sure the AHJ has the authority to reject anything he wishes to. You then have the right (in my humble opinion) to take it to the owner and/or whomever purchased the control panel to address how to deal with it.

The panel builder can, AT THEIR DISCRETION, rebuild the control panel or fix it in the field and call for a re-inspection by UL to satisfy the electrical inspector. But if they WERE following UL standards, be forewarned that they are going to expect to be paid for this. There will also be delays in the project, shipping costs, extra labor for you etc. etc. Get all of this formalized in a VERY CLEAR change order UP FRONT before you do another thing.

If on the other hand they did NOT follow UL standards, and you can prove that, they are at serious risk for having their UL508 yanked and should be bending over backwards to make sure everyone involved is very very happy and doesn't call UL on them. They should in effect absorb ALL costs for this mistake, including your time to yank out and re-install the panel, all shipping costs, delay penalties etc. etc.

But under no circumstances are you allowed to modify the INTERNAL wiring of the control panel in the field, to do so violates the UL listing of the panel. Even the control panel builder cannot alter the panel in the field without calling for a re-inspection by UL, a very expensive proposition (but a 3rd possibility by the way).
 
Last edited:

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Just because the panel is UL listed does not mean it complies with UL. UL does not inspect all panels from any one shop, and the panel mfg can short cut, or have poorly trained persons.
I had an issue with internal wiring of a control panel and I got a second opinion from a trusted 508 shop, documented the issues, within week the control panel mfg had a tech on site from out of state correcting the issues.And it was reinspected as well
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
But under no circumstances are you allowed to modify the INTERNAL wiring of the control panel in the field, to do so violates the UL listing of the panel.

That is not what UL tells us in it's own white book ..... even if you have the shirt and the hat. :grin:


What happens to the Listing if a UL-Listed product is modified in the field?

An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally
manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When
a UL-Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product
continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the
modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications ??void?? the UL Mark, nor that the
product continues to meet UL?s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically
investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the
acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field
Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product.
UL can assist the AHJ in making this
determination.

An exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement
markings. For example, a switchboard may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The
switchboard is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that
particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the marking on the product have been
investigated for use in that product.

If a party wishes UL to determine if the modifications made to a UL Listed product comply with UL
requirements, the appropriate Field Engineering Service can be initiated to investigate the modifications.
This investigation will only be conducted after UL consults with the AHJ to ensure that UL?s investigation
addresses all areas of concern and meets all of the AHJ?s needs.
If you have any questions or would like to inquire about a Field Evaluation, contact Field Services at
+1-877-UL-HELPS, prompt #2 (+1-877-854-3577) or visit http://www.ul.com/field/index.html.
Field Labeling
 
I have turned down UL listed equipment before and have found out that I was right both times. Just because there is a UL label on it, does not mean it was built to UL standards.

90.7
.........
It is the intent of this​
Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.

_____________________________
The above paragraph does NOT give an inspector the authority to examine the equipment beyond searching for alterations or damage. The inspector does have the authority to determine if the listing of the equipment matches the use conditions. Ex.: an equipment is listed and labeled for for wet locations use, but it installed in a Classified location.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
90.7
.........

It is the intent of this
Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.

_____________________________

The above paragraph does NOT give an inspector the authority to examine the equipment beyond searching for alterations or damage. The inspector does have the authority to determine if the listing of the equipment matches the use conditions. Ex.: an equipment is listed and labeled for for wet locations use, but it installed in a Classified location.


UL also tells the manufactures that a label cannot be field installed with out a UL rep present. And I would have had to show you the light fixture that anyone could tell that there was no way that it would ever have been allowed to be installed as it was built. They even sent them to another shop that said they could fix them and as soon as they saw them they put them back in the box and shipped them back. I think after I talked to the UL rep that the lighting manufacture was going to lose their listing.
 
UL also tells the manufactures that a label cannot be field installed with out a UL rep present. And I would have had to show you the light fixture that anyone could tell that there was no way that it would ever have been allowed to be installed as it was built. They even sent them to another shop that said they could fix them and as soon as they saw them they put them back in the box and shipped them back. I think after I talked to the UL rep that the lighting manufacture was going to lose their listing.
[/LEFT]

Sorry, but I can not understand what you are trying to say here. Try to start at the beginning of the story and lead us through your experience.
 

RichB

Senior Member
Location
Tacoma, Wa
Occupation
Electrician/Electrical Inspector
We just went through something similar--after looking at a supplied cabinet that was UL listed but had some real funky wiring inside it--turns out the enclosure was UL listed but none of the internals were--This was due to the fact that the cabinet is used by a mutitude of different angencies nationwide that required different installations (of the same equipment types-not neccasarily the same manufacturers) internally
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
--turns out the enclosure was UL listed but none of the internals were--This was due to the fact that the cabinet is used by a mutitude of different angencies nationwide that required different installations (of the same equipment types-not neccasarily the same manufacturers) internally
Very old trick dating back to the earliest years of UL508a, I wouldn't think anyone was still trying to get away with that. That's why the UL508a assembled control panel label is different from a UL component label.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
90.7
.........


It is the intent of this
Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.





_____________________________


The above paragraph does NOT give an inspector the authority to examine the equipment beyond searching for alterations or damage. The inspector does have the authority to determine if the listing of the equipment matches the use conditions. Ex.: an equipment is listed and labeled for for wet locations use, but it installed in a Classified location.



Perhaps that does not give the inspector the authority... but I think this does:
110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.


Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Question from a simpleton...

Question from a simpleton...

I've had the impression for a long time that if a piece of equipment was UL listed, and not modified in the field, that the AHJ had to accept it. Why has there not been more cooperation and clearer standards between NEC and UL?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top