Square D Arc Fault

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okeefe

Member
Location
Albany New York
We wanted to install Sq D 200amp MB load center and local inspector told us to choose a different panel because the arc fault circuit breakers size will obstruct the factory neutral bar. Im thinking of installing additional ground bar kit in the load center where it can be accessed without having to remove any circuit breakers to make terminations. Is square d going to change their interior design?
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Ask the inspector for a Code reference.[FONT=&quot]http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Emoticons/fiufiu.gif
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John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
It doesn't make any sense. SQ D neutral bus on the QO panel is located on each

side of the main breaker. Two bus bars on the left, two on the right. There is no

interfence between Arc fault breakers & the neutral bus. CH, GE, Siemens I do not

know about.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We wanted to install Sq D 200amp MB load center and local inspector told us to choose a different panel because the arc fault circuit breakers size will obstruct the factory neutral bar. Im thinking of installing additional ground bar kit in the load center where it can be accessed without having to remove any circuit breakers to make terminations. Is square d going to change their interior design?

QO will not have this problem as the neutral is not in that space. Homeline, GE, Cutler Hammer BR series, Siemens, all have neutral along the breaker rail and are somewhat PITA to access even with standard breakers, but I don't see how an inspector can make such a suggestion.

If you use an additional ground bar kit you can not use it for neutrals in a sub panel and if in service panel you still must make sure you are not using the panel enclosure as the path back to the main neutral bar. Next question becomes what size of conductor to feed this bar with? You will need to know what kind of current this bar will be subject to carry to figure that out. If there is a concern over access to the neutral bar I would suggest to try to keep spaces that are obstructed limited to use by the neutral of the AFCI/GFCI that is causing the obstruction and maybe the EGC of the circuit supplied by that breaker if it is the service panel.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I just installed a Homeline panel. I placed my AFCI's at the bottom. That kept the neutral bar open for the most part.

I have to remind supply houses too, that if I order a 40 or 42 space panel, I don't want a 30/40 that they will often send. With all the AFI breakers we have to use now, a 30/40 becomes little more than a 30. Same thing with quotes. I check closely to see that they don't quote a 30/40. I doubt we will ever see slimline AFI's or GFI's.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I just installed a Homeline panel. I placed my AFCI's at the bottom. That kept the neutral bar open for the most part.

I have to remind supply houses too, that if I order a 40 or 42 space panel, I don't want a 30/40 that they will often send. With all the AFI breakers we have to use now, a 30/40 becomes little more than a 30. Same thing with quotes. I check closely to see that they don't quote a 30/40. I doubt we will ever see slimline AFI's or GFI's.

That is best cleared up by ordering by catalog number instead of just saying I want a 40 circuit panel. If you generally stick to one product line you get used to the catalog numbering system they use.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I wish Square D and Cutler Hammer would figure out how to make their AFCI breakers smaller or start making their load centers wider. GE and Siemens AFCI breakers are about the same size as their standard breakers.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I wish Square D and Cutler Hammer would figure out how to make their AFCI breakers smaller or start making their load centers wider. GE and Siemens AFCI breakers are about the same size as their standard breakers.
Loadcenters are designed to be mounted between studs, so it is unlikely you will see them more than 14"w.

The Square D QO and Cutler Hammer CH breakers are both only 3/4" wide, so to fit the electronics in them, they are longer than their 1" counterparts from other manufacturers.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Here's the pictures I promised.

I actually had to pull the breakers back out to land the EGCs. Since the engineer spec'd circuits 1-9 as the AFCI circuits, when I made up my panels I pulled all the neutrals to the right to be clear of the AFCIs. The guy who made up this panel was not as thoughtful for the next guy.

It is a bit of a joke though - with this panel, the left neutral bar is short, and with AFCIs there, it is all but useless.

I landed my AFCI line-side neutrals on that bar under the breakers, and said to heck with them. If they need to them later, they'll probably have one or more of the AFCIs off anyway, it didn't bother me too much.

Panelempty.jpg


Panelfull.jpg


Is anybody else having a hard time adding attachments to posts? :confused:
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
That is best cleared up by ordering by catalog number instead of just saying I want a 40 circuit panel. If you generally stick to one product line you get used to the catalog numbering system they use.

Good point on that. I need to list a few good models in my planner & use # when I call anywhere.
 

kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
You have stumbled on one of the main reasons why I do NOT like using the Homeline panels -- their so-called "convenient" location of the neutral bars are not very installer-friendly at all.

I prefer the QO style, with the neutrals away from the hot terminals of the breakers.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I don't see how a QO neutral bar could be obstructed by any breaker, but maybe that's a typo. I can understand the inspector's reasoning - if the neutral bars are obstructed by breakers, how is he/she supposed to see whether neutrals and/or grounds are landed properly without removing the breakers? Another example of strange design practices.

I personally don't like the QO design with all the neutrals jumbled up into tight, layered rows (and it seems most guys start landing in the front row - thanks a lot ;) ).
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have to remind supply houses too, that if I order a 40 or 42 space panel, I don't want a 30/40 that they will often send.
If they did that to me, I'd be extremely impolite. :mad:


I personally don't like the QO design with all the neutrals jumbled up into tight, layered rows (and it seems most guys start landing in the front row - thanks a lot ;) ).
You'll be happy to know that I always start with the least-accessible terminals. :)


Added:
Is anybody else having a hard time adding attachments to posts? :confused:
Nope, you're among the privileged few. :grin:
 
Last edited:

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I wish Square D and Cutler Hammer would figure out how to make their AFCI breakers smaller or start making their load centers wider. GE and Siemens AFCI breakers are about the same size as their standard breakers.

Siemens is OK, I guess. GE breakers are junk for the most part, regardless of size.
 

frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
I wish Square D and Cutler Hammer would figure out how to make their AFCI breakers smaller or start making their load centers wider. GE and Siemens AFCI breakers are about the same size as their standard breakers.

Cutler Hammer does make a AFCI that is the same size as regular breakers. The other day the counter guy asked me which one I wanted, and I said the small one, and wha la he handed me one.
 
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