Owner doesn't want permits

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B W E

Member
So, Im working on creating / modifying a home improvement contract, specifically for california. There is a section pertaining to permits, and it spells out who is responsible for paying for them, pulling them, etc. I have done a million jobs where a permit was required, but the owner didn't want one. Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
IMO you should be the one deciding if the job requires a permit and inspection not the owner. Aren't you working under your license?
 

satcom

Senior Member
So, Im working on creating / modifying a home improvement contract, specifically for california. There is a section pertaining to permits, and it spells out who is responsible for paying for them, pulling them, etc. I have done a million jobs where a permit was required, but the owner didn't want one. Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?

You can not have someone sign off, and refuse to obtain a permit where required, permits and inspections where required are there to protect both you, and the owner, just think how crazy someone would have to be by risking loss of the most valued asset they have, their home, to save a few dollars on a permit fee.

I would never leave it to the customer to get the permit, I secure and pay for the permit, and then recover the cost in the contract price
 
I would never leave it to the customer to get the permit, I secure and pay for the permit, and then recover the cost in the contract price

Exactly. Whether it's explicitly listed or buried in the overhead, you get the permits required and pass the fees along to the customer. Kind of like locknuts. I will use them as needed and the customer will pay for them somehow.

Most contracts say something about "and all required permits".
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My electrical AHJ requires the contractor doing the work to file the permit. Only time owner files a permit is if they are doing work themselves, and they are rarely allowed to do so unless it is their own primary place of residence. I like it, makes it clear who has the responsibility, doesn't give the owner much choice unless he gets a contractor that is willing to not file a permit, but if it is new service POCO will not energize it without a permit so it will get filed anyway.
 

knoppdude

Senior Member
Location
Sacramento,ca
So, Im working on creating / modifying a home improvement contract, specifically for california. There is a section pertaining to permits, and it spells out who is responsible for paying for them, pulling them, etc. I have done a million jobs where a permit was required, but the owner didn't want one. Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?

Although I have done a few small jobs without permits, I won't anymore. It is not worth the risk, and your insurance may not cover the owner if something happens. This is the reasoning I use, and if they still don't agree, move on.
 

B W E

Member
Thanks for all the replies guys. I my question though was, for instance, on a bathroom or kitchen remodel. Let's say the entire job isn't permitted, I tell the customer that I need to pull an electrical permit. They say they don't want to get a permit. I know that this is almost always because of the extra expense involved. Many HOs use unlicensed workers who couldn't get a permit if they wanted to, and, depending on the size of the project, getting permits may lead to their property being re-assessed and their property tax going up.

Here's the typical scenario. Small bath remodel, I tell them I am going to pull a permit, they ask me not to. What do I do? If I walk away from every job that the HO doesn't want to pull a permit on, I'd be out of work. I hadn't considered, though, that my Gen. liability insurance wouldn't cover damages on an unpermitted project.

And then also, pertaining to my original question, if there are situations where you would stay and do the work without getting the permit, should I have the HO sign off on the refusal to permit it?
 
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220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I often have a "permits and inspections by others" clause in my contracts, be it GC's or homeowners.

It may not be legal in your state. I hope it is in mine :roll:
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
And then also, pertaining to my original question, if there are situations where you would stay and do the work without getting the permit, should I have the HO sign off on the refusal to permit it?


IMO you could do this but it wouldn't be worth the paper that it's written on. Basically you're asking them to sign something which permits you to do something illegal. You should check with an attorney but contracts generally are not binding if the object of that contract is illegal.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
This sort of not thing is becoming problematic all the more lately. In Ca much if not all electrical work or repair requires a permit. Then you have the cost of the permit and additional time. What home owner is going to pay an additional 200+ dollars to add an additional receptacle or other simple one hour service call.
The Job is going to go to the handyman.

So as the OP stated " is he going to turn down money paying jobs" I don't know about you most contractors are going to do the work. I on the other hand my become a handy man for a few years untill the big jobs return.
 

satcom

Senior Member
This sort of not thing is becoming problematic all the more lately. In Ca much if not all electrical work or repair requires a permit. Then you have the cost of the permit and additional time. What home owner is going to pay an additional 200+ dollars to add an additional receptacle or other simple one hour service call.
The Job is going to go to the handyman.

So as the OP stated " is he going to turn down money paying jobs" I don't know about you most contractors are going to do the work. I on the other hand my become a handy man for a few years untill the big jobs return.

You are the licensed contractor, not a handy dandy doing a delux zip wiring installation in the kitchen walls, of a three bedroom home with a young family.
Justify a permit on the size of the job or the customers feelings for legally required Inspections
One small receptacle installed right or wrong can destroy that charming 3 bedroom home and family
In minutes if it faults, and the installer will have many years to remember the $200 saved
The permit requirements and inspections are in place to help protect everyone the owner, the underwriter, and the installer, permits fees are not used to generate revenue for cities.
Try to educate the customers on the permit process, and their lifetime of assets put at risk if they fail to follow the laws that protect them

The old excuse of my taxes will increase if I get permits is way past it's time many years ago cities changed to tax revaluation cycles where the increased cost becomes a wash and their tax rate falls in line with the neighborhood
Educate the customer and make everyone feel at ease
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?

It seems better just to say "Permits and inspections are homeowners responsibility" That way you are not saying that you are working without permits.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
It seems better just to say "Permits and inspections are homeowners responsibility" That way you are not saying that you are working without permits.

I don't think you can put that on the contract.

Back to the other issue. Tell me who is going to pay pay 75-130 buck for a service call and then pay an added 2-300 bucks for the permit and the related return trip with the inpspector.
Let alone the added 3-500 bucks for a required AFC breaker and panel when there is not a space or type available.
 

satcom

Senior Member
I don't think you can put that on the contract.

Back to the other issue. Tell me who is going to pay pay 75-130 buck for a service call and then pay an added 2-300 bucks for the permit and the related return trip with the inpspector.
Let alone the added 3-500 bucks for a required AFC breaker and panel when there is not a space or type available.

I would like to see a copy of these fees for service calls and one receipt install

If they are that high you have a real problem?
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
It seems better just to say "Permits and inspections are homeowners responsibility" That way you are not saying that you are working without permits.


In many AHJs, that's illegal. The contractor has to obtain the permits for their own work.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I would like to see a copy of these fees for service calls and one receipt install

If they are that high you have a real problem?
what do your folks charge for a service call I know it's somewhere between 65- 130 bucks. Yes ????

OK what does it cost to obtain a permit. Go to the building dept pay for the permit then call for inspection.
i don't know about where you are from that can take another 1 1/2 hours to maybe three total. Are you going to do this portion of the service for free?
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Would it be wise to put a signature line in the contract acknowledging the requirement but refusing?

You can't waive a legal requirement at your discretion and doing this actually leaves an evidence against yourself that you acknowledged to do it anyways which may lead to revocation of your contractor license for performing work without permit.

It's like driving without insurance. You only get in trouble if you get caught, but you know better that you're not supposed to do it.

depending on the size of the project, getting permits may lead to their property being re-assessed and their property tax going up.
If that's the case, that's because it's supposed to be. If the contractor is fully aware of "why" and do it anyways to get this job, they become a participant in conspiracy to commit tax fraud.
 

Bill Annett

Senior Member
Location
Wheeling, WV
Occupation
Retired ( 2020 ) City Electrical inspector
The city that I work for Wheeling ), the electrical permit fee for installing a receptacle would be $4.00. Our permits are based on cost of the project. The cost is $4.00 per $1000.00 worth of work. A service has a set fee of $25.00 for residential and $50.00 for commercial.

WE will do as many inspections as the person or contractor wants.
 

satcom

Senior Member
what do your folks charge for a service call I know it's somewhere between 65- 130 bucks. Yes ????

OK what does it cost to obtain a permit. Go to the building dept pay for the permit then call for inspection.
i don't know about where you are from that can take another 1 1/2 hours to maybe three total. Are you going to do this portion of the service for free?

A service call in my area just to get a serviceman to the door cost anywhere from a min of $99 to $159 then the give the customer a quote for the repair or job and if they accept the quoted price they drop the trip part of the call and they obtain all permits required for the job

The average service call tends to end up costing an average of $350 plus or minus
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I doubt that it is legal to make getting permits optional, or making them the responsibility of the HO. Government wants its revenue and the plain fact is that in every jurisdiction, the permit system is used as part of the means by which RE taxes are increased. Not the only way, but always one of the ways. A lot of places have started trying to hide it by delaying the onset of the increased taxes, but it is always there eventually. And it really fools no one.

I do not get why one needs to waste a few hundred dollars on a permit to replace a light or a switch, or add an outlet. It almost forces the HO into doing it under the table, which means they almost have to deal with the bottom feeders.

The fence permit I paid 50 cents for close to 20 years ago to put in a fence that cost me about $500 worth of parts is now costing me about $60 a year in increased RE taxes.
 
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