License to Survive

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romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I'm wondering how many of you have read 'License to Survive' in this months trade rag here (reg required)

The short version is, the article is pointing out one state's manner of addressing their 'skilled labor drain', via introducing a bill dumbing down the entire process , further pointing to 'first time failure' rates for what WAS the norm for validation , and lauding it all as the shape of our future profession.

I beg to differ. I'm posting in the leader of trade educational sites claiming this wag the dog 101

Most of these trade rags foist perennial labor shortage articles our way.
Yet,as there are many factors that would result in a shortage of any commodity, service or personnel , thier RX focuses on, as well as accomodates ineptitude.

Right now my state is lacking it's ability to license sparks per past quota, loosing the ones that do pass, and increasing the median to upper 50's in age here.

One of the biggest factors is the maintenance field doing the work . Up the street in skibunnyville 1/2 dozen maintenance companies are hiring ,and there's more of a market for a failed apprentice than ever before.

Further, and to even less notice by the writers , is the fact that our AG (who is talking to other states on this issue) has had the radish with the tsumami of litigation created by these sorts. Certification, which wasn't on the radar, is now being considered for maintenance ,home improvement and handymen . None of which wil ensure a safer / compliant install, all of which will sell plently of insurance policies when the 'eff up.

tell me i'm not alone.....what is your state doing? ~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
https://youtu.be/-LhpFM2ChmA

I happen to like Mike Rowe John, we've got a good trade, and good jobs

because we EARNED it, and it was hard earned by those that came before us

I don't want to politicize the issue, so i'll call them all the 'powers that be'

Let the 'PTB' dumb it all down to illiteracy and ineptitude , .....and we won't have a good trade anymore, because nobody will make a good living rubbin' elbows with crybaby snowflakes that can't use a code book, let alone pass a test w/one.

Can you believe they posted interview with some EC who claims his sparks can't pass a test, who actually has the ear of some congresscritter? And this from a trade rag that supposedly upholds us as a 'profession'?

excuse me?

Rowe trys to define good job' , but what i'm reading is a recipe for a death spiral competing with 'do you want fries w/that?'

It galls me that this trade rag would even run an article advocating us slicing our own throats , which is why most go into the woodstove

I'm done w/ EC&M

~RJ~
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Here in California the disaster reporting media coined the phrase, "Complete Regulatory Failure" when referring to the license board, or municipal inspectors. Usually after some General contractor ignores a "Stop Order", and laborers get subsequently crushed in a collapsing trench, and the untouchable contractor disappears.

My first apprenticeship master in 2002 referred to GC laborers as land fill, and bragged about construction sites where laborers from foreign lands were buried alive, and interred without anyone caring to ask about their absence. He made it sound easy to get away with, and perhaps intentional.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
https://youtu.be/-LhpFM2ChmA

I happen to like Mike Rowe John, we've got a good trade, and good jobs

because we EARNED it, and it was hard earned by those that came before us

I don't want to politicize the issue, so i'll call them all the 'powers that be'

Let the 'PTB' dumb it all down to illiteracy and ineptitude , .....and we won't have a good trade anymore, because nobody will make a good living rubbin' elbows with crybaby snowflakes that can't use a code book, let alone pass a test w/one.

Can you believe they posted interview with some EC who claims his sparks can't pass a test, who actually has the ear of some congresscritter? And this from a trade rag that supposedly upholds us as a 'profession'?

excuse me?

Rowe trys to define good job' , but what i'm reading is a recipe for a death spiral competing with 'do you want fries w/that?'

It galls me that this trade rag would even run an article advocating us slicing our own throats , which is why most go into the woodstove

I'm done w/ EC&M

~RJ~

I have a hard time figuring out that mag. They grade the states as to how they rank with NEC status etc, then seemingly agree with opening up the licensing procedure because ‘my guy can’t take a test because...’ and all the old guys are retiring. I call bull.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Here in California the disaster reporting media coined the phrase, "Complete Regulatory Failure" when referring to the license board, or municipal inspectors. Usually after some General contractor ignores a "Stop Order", and laborers get subsequently crushed in a collapsing trench, and the untouchable contractor disappears.

My first apprenticeship master in 2002 referred to GC laborers as land fill, and bragged about construction sites where laborers from foreign lands were buried alive, and interred without anyone caring to ask about their absence. He made it sound easy to get away with, and perhaps intentional.

Regulatory failure indeed .....

Tolerating ,ignoring, or otherwise advocating such sorts perpetuates chaos ,no true profession can compete with.

I do not wish our trade to devolve to such levels.

One would assume all that is 'regulatory' in our trade, the NFPA, NEC, IAEI,CSPC,UL, etc , would protest

Of note is, these rags allow no rebuttal. I've writen them multiple times in the past for such blatant debuacheries. I call more than 'bull', up that ante' to 'boycot'

~RJ~
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Here in Florida they hire anybody as long as the contractor has the license . There's still contractor's that take pride in their work " Craftsmanship " . Lot of contractors don't care if they hire someone who doesn't have a license or formal training as long as they "Get It Done " ....
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Here in Florida they hire anybody as long as the contractor has the license . There's still contractor's that take pride in their work " Craftsmanship " . Lot of contractors don't care if they hire someone who doesn't have a license or formal training as long as they "Get It Done " ....

Correct me if i'm off here Dave, but all my FLA buds inform me that the overwhelming contractual bureaucracy they endue is the backlash of carpetbaggers ans subsequent litigation, mostly endured via retirees

~RJ~
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Can't answer about the bureaucracy the contractors endure as I work in a manufacturing plant . Do know we have retirees working for contractors under the table for less . Just don't see the quality of work being like I think it should be . This is in all trades . Not all contractors are like this . See so called journeyman that are really helpers being called journeyman but have no card , nor formal training , just worked in the field ..
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Who's going to advocate a pseudo professional here?

Let me put it this way, who's willing to go under the knife via some illiterate physician who could not pass muster?

~RJ~
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
I think my post got lost. I did use the term king for the governor. I also used the term sanctuary city/state which we are. I also used the term illegals and the term prisoners. The last two have been talked about in employment ideas. Guess not PC.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
On 9/26/18 EC&M pumped out another related article:
Recent Electrical Trade School Grad Can’t Find Job, Takes Matters into His Own Hands.


The article describes a 21-year old Houston man with a cardboard sign at a busy intersection.

In my State people holding cardboard signs are making a killing at freeway off ramps. It doesn't matter what the sign says. After seeing them fight each other off for the territory, the cash donations are apparently up to $200.- per hour in my area.

This is a career changer. The cash pours in as they appear to suffer miserably in the hot sun, especially holding a cute puppy in their arms. Waiting behind other cars, I've seen these beggars get cash, bottled water, hats, job offers, and love letters. These jokers can probably make more cash in one day than some Churches collect in a month.

The other killing is made by private Trade Schools. Students rush in, --assuming construction-labor shortage = demand for skilled labor--, as many developers and contractors demand less regulation, and cheaper labor. Why pay for Trade-School certificates, if its cheaper to exploit unregulated laborers. By crying for deregulation of labor, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and may get relaxed regulations.

In the face of general contractors exploiting laborers for all trades, the task of lobbying local governments to increase regulation is a costly uphill battle. For a substantial fraction of the year, organized-labor journeymen are attempting unemployment subsistence while their revolving apprentices (unskilled labor) remain mostly employed.
 
Last edited:

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
On 9/26/18 EC&M pumped out another related article:
Recent Electrical Trade School Grad Can’t Find Job, Takes Matters into His Own Hands.


The article describes a 21-year old Houston man with a cardboard sign at a busy intersection.

In my State people holding cardboard signs are making a killing at freeway off ramps. It doesn't matter what the sign says. After seeing them fight each other off for the territory, the cash donations are apparently up to $200.- per hour in my area.

This is a career changer. The cash pours in as they appear to suffer miserably in the hot sun, especially holding a cute puppy in their arms. Waiting behind other cars, I've seen these beggars get cash, bottled water, hats, job offers, and love letters. These jokers can probably make more cash in one day than some Churches collect in a month.

And old timer once told me "some people work harder at NOT working, than actually working" , which is usually the case w/ such sorts

The other killing is made by private Trade Schools. Students rush in, --assuming construction-labor shortage = demand for skilled labor--, as many developers and contractors demand less regulation, and cheaper labor. Why pay for Trade-School certificates, if its cheaper to exploit unregulated laborers. By crying for deregulation of labor, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and may get relaxed regulations.

In the face of general contractors exploiting laborers for all trades, the task of lobbying local governments to increase regulation is a costly uphill battle. For a substantial fraction of the year, organized-labor journeymen are attempting unemployment subsistence while their revolving apprentices (unskilled labor) remain mostly employed.

The truth is, construction is the first casualty in boom bust cycles.

Right now, we're on the high side , in demand.

Construction Labor Shortage Creates Increasingly Lucrative Career Paths.......one of many similar articles.

IMHO, this isn't time to dumb it down for more help ,because the GC's ,PM's looking to exploit skilled labor have the ear of legislation , it's time to cull the herd of those entrants who aren't viable.

they don't understand that the worthy are looking at the long run , these are serious players ,not transients

Anything short of this dilutes the intergrity of the trade , as well as it's consumer value and personal gain joining up within it.

How many youngsters would (as they say) be 'down w/that'?

~RJ~
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
And, in the good news department, there is a 18 year old starting his apprenticeship with the electrical contractor doing the remodeling work in one of my buildings, hard working kid, starting in the IBEW apprenticeship program, and a 22 year old young lady starting with the plumbing contractor doing work here, I'm proud of both of them.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Personally, I don't have an issue with what some are calling "dumbing down". It really isn't dumbing down so much as making the requirements to get in the trade closer to what they really need to be to safely do the work. There is no reason why it takes a whole lot of training or experience to do certain kinds of electrical work. You really think someone needs to be a licensed apprentice to carry conduit around? or to drill holes in studs? or even to mount boxes to studs? there are plenty of simple electrical tasks that someone with little training or experience could learn to do quite well very fast. why some people think you need to have a license and a 4 year apprenticeship to do those simple tasks escapes me.

code questions are not an issue for the vast majority of electrical work if it is handled properly. the guy doing the labor does not need to know how to size a complex feeder if his job is to drill holes in studs for Romex. All he needs to know for that is a few very simple rules about where the holes should be located and how to use a drill.
 
Personally, I don't have an issue with what some are calling "dumbing down". It really isn't dumbing down so much as making the requirements to get in the trade closer to what they really need to be to safely do the work. There is no reason why it takes a whole lot of training or experience to do certain kinds of electrical work. You really think someone needs to be a licensed apprentice to carry conduit around? or to drill holes in studs? or even to mount boxes to studs? there are plenty of simple electrical tasks that someone with little training or experience could learn to do quite well very fast. why some people think you need to have a license and a 4 year apprenticeship to do those simple tasks escapes me.

code questions are not an issue for the vast majority of electrical work if it is handled properly. the guy doing the labor does not need to know how to size a complex feeder if his job is to drill holes in studs for Romex. All he needs to know for that is a few very simple rules about where the holes should be located and how to use a drill.

I agree. Some of this "red tape" by the powers that be certainly doesn't help. I am licensed in 3 states, been in the trade for 15 ish years, and there are still a bunch of states that won't let me get a license there. Another example: the solar company I have done work with had some opportunities in mass. Unfortunately they require journey man electricians to haul solar panels and ballast block. Good job guys.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
I didn't read the article, but my take from the op post is, due to lack of trained workers the powers that be would like to add/change legislation to circumvent laws allowing any person to work as an electrician. Other people in reply telling what they see in their areas. Other people then brought up mundane jobs could be done by brain dead at a lower cost. Other people brought up this has gone from a skilled craft, master, jw, app, helper, to just a job and in so doing will bring all of our pay scale down. One brain running 4-5 zombies, 1 mounts box, 1 run pipe, 1 pull wire, 1 termination, 1 trim, 1 lights great for the company if no one gets sick because they aren't interchangeable. Others prefer a true mechanic that knows much more and can be used anywhere; of course you pay more for that.
Basically it's all about the money.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
for some of us it is also about the 4 or five years working for sometimes jerk bosses to get your paperwork then you have to move for some reason before you get the papers and have to start all over... Would like to see a way to pass the writtens and then get the job time... rather than getting to the point that you start saying I am too old to go through the working for others when no one will take what I have done as experience because all my old bosses have died from cancer or old age or etc so no one can sign off... Not asking that the tests be dumbed down but asking that we recognise that most of what I need to know to do what I do I already know and the paperwork, while letting me do more is not really going to be having me do more because I will probably stay doing what I have done for around 35 years, home repairs... While keeping up with the codes like I have been trying to in my line of work anyway..it is just a piece of paper to me...saying I know what I have been doing correctly already for years...
 
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