AFCI Situation

[readydave8]

Kwired and others.



And finally.....electrical contractors naturally oppose any device that is mandated.

They universally detested GFCI's when they were introduced in the 70's and now the hatred is projected toward AFCI.

The sad but true fact is that AFCI's WILL save lives.

They are here, so let's get used to them.

I detested GFCI's in the 70's, now I don't mind them. Partly because they work better than they used to.

[kwired]

I detested GFCI's in the 70's, now I don't mind them. Partly because they work better than they used to.

Not saying GFCI's have not had any improvements made over the years but are they really that much better or have we found and fixed most of the neutral to ground faults that we didn't know existed before?

I still run into 70's GFCI's that still appear to work just fine.

[kwired]

To no have AFCI installed when you replace a panel with a new one is reduculous if in fact the AFCI does what they are supposed to do. Manufactures make two pole versions to use on MWBC's for this very purpose. I am not a proponent of AFCI but not to require them upon panel change or modification, extension is like allowing a person to change out his windows using single pane units or mail ordering some lead based paint from some third world country because you like the way it works. or using some new asbestos insulation because you found some in an old barn. We just don't do that kind of stuff. ( most of us)

I agree that the old wiring probably needs the AFCI more so than (most) new wiring assuming the AFCI does what it is supposed to do.

single pane windows is not a safety issue as much as it is energy use issue. You don't have to order lead base paint from third world countries. It just is not available at hardware stores and home centers that sell primarily to homeowners. Lead base paint is used AFAIK in some harsh environment conditions where it is superior to other options. I don't know how easy it is to get but it is still used at times. I think paints used for road striping contained lead for a long time after the ban for lead paint in general was issued. Don't really know if it is still that way.

[nysprkdude]

Nysparkydude ...

You make enough assertions that your post is worthy of starting a new thread. A few things I'd like to see addressed in that new thread:

1) I'd love to see some pics of this glowing MC / AC / flex that progressed through the cellulose insulation until it reached and ignited the wood framing;

2) NEMA asserts that there has never been an instance of a listed product, in good repair and operating properly, tripping an AFCI. This conflicts with your statement about CFL's. Data, please;

3) The entire AFCI debate is quite involved, and beyond the scope of this thread. Let's just say there are still issues to address; and,

4) The idea that an AFCI will detect anything has been challenged by no les a person than the guy who pioneered the dang thing. It appears that his assertion that the laws of physics preclude the existance of a maintained arc at household voltages, between copper electrodes, deserves some serious consideration.

"Get used to it?" I expect that this debate is far from over.

Reno,

I'd like to start a new thread as per your request but cannot locate the post new thread button.

So....I'll respond here.

1) Entering my 9th year as an inspector. I've seen the actual glowing BX cable only twice but have seen the charred trail in the insulation leading up to the wood framing member a handful of times. I'll try to snap a pic next time I encounter such.

2) Can't speak to NEMA's statement but many state and federally funded housing projects here require installation of CFL's in the construction or renovation of properties. On numerous occasions, electricians have reiterated that they had an AFCI trip problem that was solved once they removed, replaced or even re-oriented the CFL. Other than that, I personally have no experience with such, just what is reiterated to me as an inspector.

3) Again.....I don't believe I am authorized to "start" a new thread.

4.) AFCI's were developed by Cutler Hammer. I cannot find any information where they question the effectiveness of the device.
Of course that may not serve thier needs so I guess obtaining info of that nature is difficult at best to locate. I wish I had saved a link to what I previously read about some new device. I believe it may have been in an IAEI newsletter.

[Sierrasparky]

Reno,

I'd like to start a new thread as per your request but cannot locate the post new thread button.

So....I'll respond here.



4.) AFCI's were developed by Cutler Hammer. I cannot find any information where they question the effectiveness of the device.
Of course that may not serve thier needs so I guess obtaining info of that nature is difficult at best to locate. I wish I had saved a link to what I previously read about some new device. I believe it may have been in an IAEI newsletter.

Yes Eaton has some patents on the AFCI. One of the Engineers who was retired Engle is his name has been campaining as to the efectiveness of the combination AFCI. Engle is one of the Engineers named on the patent along with Eaton.
GO figure that one out.

[kwired]

Reno,

I'd like to start a new thread as per your request but cannot locate the post new thread button.

So....I'll respond here.

...


3) Again.....I don't believe I am authorized to "start" a new thread.

May be more than one way but try this: click the "Forum" that should be at top of this page.

Near the top of the page it takes you to is a button that says "+New Topic or Question".

Check bottom right of this page to see your permissions. If you can reply you should be able to start new topics.

[readydave8]

Not saying GFCI's have not had any improvements made over the years but are they really that much better or have we found and fixed most of the neutral to ground faults that we didn't know existed before?

I still run into 70's GFCI's that still appear to work just fine.

good point

[nysprkdude]

May be more than one way but try this: click the "Forum" that should be at top of this page.

Near the top of the page it takes you to is a button that says "+New Topic or Question".

Check bottom right of this page to see your permissions. If you can reply you should be able to start new topics.

I do not see the "+New Topic or Question" when I select the "Forum" button.

Maybe a moderator could explain how one goes about starting a new thread.

Thank you,

[kwired]

I do not see the "+New Topic or Question" when I select the "Forum" button.

Maybe a moderator could explain how one goes about starting a new thread.

Thank you,

Look near bottom right of this page. Do you see something like this:

You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

[cowboyjwc]

You guys need to read this article on the history of AFCI's and quit blaming the manufactuers and blame the CPSC instead or UL.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produc...the%20AFCI.pdf