Hotel conversion getting full kitchens. ugh!

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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
Besides having full AFCI protection, and upping the number of required outlets on the walls, having the small appliance ckts, and a bathroom ckt., can anybody give me any more things i might have forgotten about?

like do i need the same smoke requirements? still have to have a bathroom outlet on it's own ckt? still can't feed any other outlets off the kit. ckts.? boy, this is going to suck.

each section is being fed by either a 200A sub or a 150A sub. one of the 150A subs is going to have to eat 4 RANGE CKTS!! i can derate these on a subpanel just like a main right? ie the feeder and not the service?

i am going to have to change out almost every single pole breaker in this 3 story building, sure glad i caught that one! got to get this right! i asked the elec inspector but he wouldn't elaborate much more other than to say this is going to have to be wiring as a brand new dwelling unit. pretty much cut and dried i guess. this is still going to be a rental unit, they are not considered commercial are they? (for the undercabinet outlets, like d/w and disp gfci protection). the general who gets this is going to be ripping out a mile of drywall and every room is double rocked, sux to be him! but i got to get it right to tell him where to rip it out, so he can bid it right too. (friend of mine).


basically correct me if i'm wrong, but this has to now be wired like a brand new house, si'? (i even saw a requirement in the code for front and rear outlets at ground level. and, but thankfully i don't have any...balconies.) The owner has just added an addendum to the specs that he wants to see load calcs for the subs too. a good idea. every unit is getting a microwave, range, fridge, a d/w and disp., and (has an existing 20A 240V AC). The current building just had a ckt for the bath gfi, and another one on the same counter top that fed out to every recept in the room. so that bath room outlet has to be refed from the first one. wowie, they are in tile back splashes.
 
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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
"i asked the elec inspector but he wouldn't elaborate much more other than to say this is going to have to be wiring as a brand new dwelling unit."

Sounds like he pretty much covered what he is going to be looking for ! :grin:

Not know where your panels are or the management arrangement, you might make note of 240.24(B)
 
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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
Probably easier to ask if anybody knows of anything this place might not need that a house would, rather than what it will need. any kind of short cuts or wiggle room, like, for example,

there is an article that says i don't have to put the outlets every 12 feet, as long as i have the same number of outlets in the room as if i did, that is, i can lay them out according to the furniture installed. (same article says i can't put an outlet behind a bed w/o protective cover)

and, does anybody just have a gut feeling, w/o doing a calc, on whether a 200A subpanel would be able to absorb 4 range ckts each? i feel that that is no sweat, however, i am sweating the 150A subs abilities. i am going to go tour the building today, i haven't done the calcs yet myself. that is something i am going to do now as soon as i get off this puter.
 
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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
they have now, and will retain, the 20A 240V a/c unit in each place it's at now. they are combining two motel units into one larger "apt" type room. except on the top floor, where they are leaving the rooms small studio's with full kitchens.

one thing i am doing today is pulling the cover off one panel (yippie, there is an open house there today selling off furniture), and turning on one of those a.c. units and measuring the load. ditto for my house with the range and oven on.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Probably easier to ask if anybody knows of anything this place might not need that a house would, rather than what it will need. any kind of short cuts or wiggle room, like, for example,

there is an article that says i don't have to put the outlets every 12 feet, as long as i have the same number of outlets in the room as if i did, that is, i can lay them out according to the furniture installed. (same article says i can't put an outlet behind a bed w/o protective cover).

Be careful with that. I beleive that is part of 210.60, "Guest Suites, etc". Be sure these units fall under that definition before applying.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
just fyi i got that info out of the handbook-2011

art.100 is no help whatsoever as far as its def. of guest room. as usual, i need a crystal ball

210.18 is mo betta (handbook only) now that i have the codebook in my hands..........hmmm, range derating....

i got to say that this stinking required 30 days of measuring an actual load under 220.87 is really p--ing on my corn flakes.


and i have to assume that table 220.84 will allow me to rerate the feeders to my sub panels according to table 220-55? thanks 50% for 4 medium sized ranges. ranges arn't even spec'd out. back to my crystal freakken ball dammit.
 
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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I agree the definitions aren't much help. Maybe like a "closets" vs "storge areas" and "equipment room"... what do the plans say :grin: or perhaps as importantly, the AHJ
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
plans? what the heck are plans? i have a basic layout of where the appliances, lites and switches are going. NO electrical plans. is it just where i live? is it me? is there a shortage of architects that know how to draw electrical blueprints? do they charge too much? plans! i'd like to say we don't need no stinkin plans, but SHOW ME SOME FREAKIN PLANS!!! PLEASE!!! how bout an elec. engineer in there somewhere as well, how bout the data sheet from the appliances. something ANYTHING

as for storage room and electrical equipment room, aren't they the same thing???? they sure are in chinese restaurants and mini markets!!!!
 
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Strife

Senior Member
Let me guess:
You were the lowest bidder?
The code allows a lot of different load calculation and a lot of times I had to play with them to be able to make the load calcs work, but it'll be interesting to see them work with 4 ranges on 150A.
Considering ranges go for about 8KVA and even derating the demand for 4 of them you'll still be around 24-27KVA out of the 36KVA a 150A breaker will give you. Hard to see how you gonna fit 2 small appliance circuits @ 300VA times 4. Not to mention the other things, as small as they can be.

Besides having full AFCI protection, and upping the number of required outlets on the walls, having the small appliance ckts, and a bathroom ckt., can anybody give me any more things i might have forgotten about?

like do i need the same smoke requirements? still have to have a bathroom outlet on it's own ckt? still can't feed any other outlets off the kit. ckts.? boy, this is going to suck.

each section is being fed by either a 200A sub or a 150A sub. one of the 150A subs is going to have to eat 4 RANGE CKTS!! i can derate these on a subpanel just like a main right? ie the feeder and not the service?

i am going to have to change out almost every single pole breaker in this 3 story building, sure glad i caught that one! got to get this right! i asked the elec inspector but he wouldn't elaborate much more other than to say this is going to have to be wiring as a brand new dwelling unit. pretty much cut and dried i guess. this is still going to be a rental unit, they are not considered commercial are they? (for the undercabinet outlets, like d/w and disp gfci protection). the general who gets this is going to be ripping out a mile of drywall and every room is double rocked, sux to be him! but i got to get it right to tell him where to rip it out, so he can bid it right too. (friend of mine).


basically correct me if i'm wrong, but this has to now be wired like a brand new house, si'? (i even saw a requirement in the code for front and rear outlets at ground level. and, but thankfully i don't have any...balconies.) The owner has just added an addendum to the specs that he wants to see load calcs for the subs too. a good idea. every unit is getting a microwave, range, fridge, a d/w and disp., and (has an existing 20A 240V AC). The current building just had a ckt for the bath gfi, and another one on the same counter top that fed out to every recept in the room. so that bath room outlet has to be refed from the first one. wowie, they are in tile back splashes.
 
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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
i dont usually post questions to answer past dirty deeds.

bid is due monday. thanks for some calcs. i am hoping the 150's are for less than half of the 8 unit floor. maybe a 5/3 split or something. still can figure in for a panel upgrade tho. your info makes it look like it will be necessary. i can at least find the amperage of the a.c. units too among other things when i head up there (an hour away one way) right now.

usually 8kw although not a given, is one of the reasons i wish just once, somebody had the actual nameplate of an appliance ESPECIALLY a heat pump (stupid h&a/c salesmen!)

they took the time to list in the spec sheet EVERY single appliance, but no wattage specs. there will also be a change to up the bid with change orders after another walk thru the architect will make with the winning elec. contractor. doesnt that mean LowBall? when i get back i spoze i will be looking up every single appliance on the interweb and finding the data myself. i am so happy that i will not make ten cents doing this estimate. i love it.

i just did a search for the range, and the number one google listing was that it was NO LONGER BEING MANUFACTURED. . Did find it listed at not 8, but 11.7KW! i feel extra love now
 
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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
timed out on the edit time above. the 11.7 KW ranges are only for the 2br units on a 200A panel.
But with 9200W x 4 and x 50% being 18400. i have to add sm appliance ckts x 3 for each unit, we got those heat/a/c's, and the bathroom. so at 2500W each there is 4 x 2500 or a nice round 10K each x 4 or 40K (w/o ac). i doubt there is going to be a way to use the service calcs to make this fit under 150A, but i haven't looked at it yet. i have to 'turn and burn' right now up to the site, if for nothing else other than to count the number of afci breakers i gotta buy. at least they have gone down in price considerably to $35 ea.

10.5A 120V dishwasher
6.2A 120v reefer
and the ac is on a 20A 240 breaker

in case your wondering i did find the appliances spec'd out. just had to interweb the specifications on them. Gotta love this web thang
 
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Strife

Senior Member
Might be wrong, but I could swear that if you don't have nameplate you can use the 8.5 for the ranges as a generic, general demand (plus the derating you get from using 4).
So you might wanna keep quite about the nameplate.

i dont usually post questions to answer past dirty deeds.
i just did a search for the range, and the number one google listing was that it was NO LONGER BEING MANUFACTURED. . Did find it listed at not 8, but 11.7KW! i feel extra love now
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
ssshhhhhhhhh!


anyway, i can use service calcs for the feeders to the subpanels, can't i?

Hate to show my ignorance, but i havent bid an apt since i was in trade school, or took my jmans test.
 
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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
220.1 Scope.
This article provides requirements for calculating branch-circuit, feeder, and service loads. Part I provides for general requirements for calculation methods. Part II provides calculation methods for branch-circuit loads. Parts III and IV provide calculation methods for feeders and services. Part V provides calculation methods for farms.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
First i want to correct what i said above about it being 2500W for each small appliance ckt: it is 1500 W each.

Second, thank you Augie, sometimes i can't see the forest for the trees.

$35ea was for a Homeline, i have to buy QO's, which will be a lot more, and
each panel is rated at 225A however they are fed by 000 copper if they are coming off a 200A breaker, and 1/0 CU for those fed by a 150A breaker. They are all fed by 2" pipe and my load from the ac/heat units was 14A with heat on full.
Thx to all for help/comments and....
Time to put the nose to the grind stone now.
 

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
plans? what the heck are plans? i have a basic layout of where the appliances, lites and switches are going. NO electrical plans. is it just where i live? is it me? is there a shortage of architects that know how to draw electrical blueprints? do they charge too much? plans! i'd like to say we don't need no stinkin plans, but SHOW ME SOME FREAKIN PLANS!!! PLEASE!!! how bout an elec. engineer in there somewhere as well, how bout the data sheet from the appliances. something ANYTHING

as for storage room and electrical equipment room, aren't they the same thing???? they sure are in chinese restaurants and mini markets!!!!

So your doing a design-build?:grin:
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
i don't guess anybody knows why in appendix D, doing load calcs it says to use 1500 W for ea small appliance ckt, but 120vx20A=2400VA? just curious, which is why the 2500W figure seemed right in previous posts.
 
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