retrofitting 400 high bay metal halide

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mtnelectrical

Senior Member
Any good experiences retrofitting 400 watts metal halide fixtures, tips, hints and any brand you recomend for four 54-watt T5 highoutput fixtures?.Thanks for sharing your experience.
 

S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Very very good for electric bills. Off the top of my head, cost was reduced about 65% after switching from 400mh fixtures to T-5's with ocupant sensors set at 20minutes. Electronic ballasts are quite sensitive and dont seem to last very long but the advantages are huge. Again I'm guessing, but I think a 400w mh draws about 3 amps. Where a 4 lamp 54w T-5 is about .5 amps
 

Barndog

Senior Member
Location
Spring Creek Pa
Any good experiences retrofitting 400 watts metal halide fixtures, tips, hints and any brand you recomend for four 54-watt T5 highoutput fixtures?.Thanks for sharing your experience.

what would be your mounting height. We just did around 700 here. and changed them to 6 lamp T-8 with a high power ballast. Our height was anywhere from 25 to 45 feet seem to have the same light but more spread out. I really havent dealt with T5's enough to make an opion on them.
 

revolt

Member
We were using Optimum Lighting. If you give them the quantity, height,burn hours, area etc. they will figure the savings and rebate information. REMEMBER that in NJ if the project is over around $11,500 (forget exact figure) you have to pay prevailing wage even if it is a private building. It is on the Smart Start web site. After they passed the law we quit doing them. Just not worth it and the customers usually says "that much!!! forget it"
 

Strife

Senior Member
Not sure how you figure 54Wx4 = .5A
So I checked just to make sure, and sure enough is 2A @ 120V
So I assumed you mean 480V, that would make it .5 A
But then the 400MH is not 3A, is only 1A.
So first of all it looks like the MH draws 6 times more current, which in fact is only 2 times.
Second, 4 - 54W T5 lamps have 5000 Lumens, whereas a 400A MH has 32,000.
Sorry, I don't care what the "specialists" say, I installed enough lights in my life to be extremely confident that 4x54W T5's are not even close to the brightness of a 400W MH.

Very very good for electric bills. Off the top of my head, cost was reduced about 65% after switching from 400mh fixtures to T-5's with ocupant sensors set at 20minutes. Electronic ballasts are quite sensitive and dont seem to last very long but the advantages are huge. Again I'm guessing, but I think a 400w mh draws about 3 amps. Where a 4 lamp 54w T-5 is about .5 amps
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I have done a few change outs to the new T-5 HO's, while in all cases I stuck with using the 6 lamps with the mirror reflectors from RUUD the change out was a snap, the old fixture had twist-loc and the new was ordered with twist-loc and a 6' whip, the 6 lamp fixtures use 360 watts but were way much brighter then the 400 watt MH could ever be, one place was a trucking garage and after the change they didn't have to use drop lights any more because of less shadows, and since these lamps come right back on, they had us put them on a 3-way 4-way switching at each door, the only problem was they had some trucks with exhaust stacks , but they liked the lights so much they converted these few trucks to underneath exhaust to solve this problem of sooting up the mirror reflectors, I have yet to have a non-satisfied customer with T-5, 54 watt fixtures.

I also just finished a utility company's work shop with t-5 HO strip lights, replacing 8' 110 watt HO fixtures, with 2-lamp 4' T-5, 54 watt, again way more light for about half the energy, now they want two other complexes done.

But one word of warning, make sure you can get the fixtures before you set a date to install, as the shortage of ballast has left manufactures only producing T-5 fixtures as they are ordered, and I had to wait 14 days to get the T-5 strip lights, RUDD keeps the high bay T-5 fixtures stocked up and ready to ship the next day.

Also check out RUDD's prices on T-5 lamps, 118.00 for a case of 40, the best I can find anywhere, and their lower cost brand Econo-Light will sell them even cheaper, I think at 89.00 a case of 40.

http://www.ruudlightingdirect.com/ <<<< You have to start an account to see the prices, but it's worth it. Great warranted, and their wall packs are second to none, with the mounting block they use.

http://www.e-conolight.com/ <<<< Open for all. not happy with warranty, and some of their fixtures are not as good as RUUD's but over all great prices, especially the lamp prices.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Not sure how you figure 54Wx4 = .5A
So I checked just to make sure, and sure enough is 2A @ 120V
So I assumed you mean 480V, that would make it .5 A
But then the 400MH is not 3A, is only 1A.
So first of all it looks like the MH draws 6 times more current, which in fact is only 2 times.
Second, 4 - 54W T5 lamps have 5000 Lumen's, whereas a 400A MH has 32,000.Sorry, I don't care what the "specialists" say, I installed enough lights in my life to be extremely confident that 4x54W T5's are not even close to the brightness of a 400W MH.

One error above in red:

T-5 depending upon the manufacture and fixture design, will have between 4500 to 6100 lumen's per lamp
When retro fitting older 400 watt non-pulse start MH fixtures you can only expect about 23,000 lumen's per lamp or less, while the newer PS-MH 400 lamps again depending upon the manufacture, is around 28,000-33,000 lumen's, so yes I use the 6 lamp mirror reflector high bays, which will always produce more lumen's then a 400 MH, because the reflector almost triples the light hitting the floor.

Each T-5, 54 watt lamp including ballast will use about 60 watts per lamp, so a 6 lamp fixture will use 360 watts no mater what the voltage, still much lower then a 400 watt that uses over 480 watts per lamp including ballast.

T-5 technology produces the most lumen's per watt then of any out there as of right now, not including LED's
 
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S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
S'mise said "Not sure how you figure 54Wx4 = .5A"
I prefaced it by saying "off the top of my head"

You said "I installed enough lights in my life to be extremely confident that 4x54W T5's are not even close to the brightness of a 400W MH"
Your confidence is in the wrong horse. If anything, I'd say its brighter. If not it's very close. I'm Judging a side by side comparison as we speak!
 

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
Any good experiences retrofitting 400 watts metal halide fixtures, tips, hints and any brand you recomend for four 54-watt T5 highoutput fixtures?.Thanks for sharing your experience.

Did a 2(400w MH)-1(6 lamp T5) retrofit at our shop and actually picked up about 10 fc. At the time the MH lamps had about 10,000 hrs. burn time on them.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
The gym I go to uses six-lamp T8 fixtures with grille cover to prevent lamps from getting knocked out by balls. Another location I also go to uses MH.

6 lamp T8 should be around 21,000 mean lumens(@ 40% life) with high lumen lamps, so about 20% less than 400W MH (@ 40% life) comparing strictly lamp & ballast output. Depending on the old fixture, high efficiency fixture optics can match the foot candle value. 4 lamp 54W T5 is around 19,000 mean lumens. There are sales people out there who will boast "T5 technology" but you shouldn't see much difference between 4 lamp 54W T5 vs 6 lamp 32W T8.

If it's a gym where balls are going to get used, definitely get fixtures with grill cover. Lamps are pretty tough and they might not break from impact, but they can get knocked out of socket fairly easily and they will most definitely break when they land on the floor.

The quality of light is better. The MH lit gym feels like a warehouse or Best Buy. Fluorescent lit one feels more like inside a department store.

This is really subjective, but most big box stores around here have ditched high-bay metal halide. Best Buy is about the only place still using them and it really is horrid.

T5 and T8 uses the same phosphor and quality of light is comparable.

I don't pay the power bill, but RE80 fluorescent is definitely more pleasing to be under than MH.

Book value is about 450W for MH. 215W 6 lamp T8, 226W on 4 lamp T5 Allow +/- 10% or so for ambient temperature difference since fluorescent lamp power is affected by temperature.
 
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renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Absolutely not scientific in any way, but my perception, from what I've installed, is that 4-T5's are just a wee bit brighter than a 250w metal halide at your 23 ft. level.

To replace 400w MH, I would look to the six lamp units.

Lighting is, in many ways, subjective. T-5's seem to give a better 'quality' light, so even a slightly 'dimmer' fixture might seem to provide 'brighter,' or 'better' lighting.

Another major plus to T-5's is that one dead bulb, or even the absence of a bulb, does not cause the remaining bulbs to be any less bright. No flicker, etc.

Finally, with T-5's you get SOME light almost the instant you flip the switch. No more 20-minute periods of darkness every time the power has a hiccup.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Absolutely not scientific in any way, but my perception, from what I've installed, is that 4-T5's are just a wee bit brighter than a 250w metal halide at your 23 ft. level.

The age of MH plays a big role. There's minimal efficacy difference between T5/T8 and brand new MH.

F54T5/49W is 5,000 lumen new 4750 design lumen. Power consumption is 220W for 4 with ballast.

basic 250W MH is 20,500 new 13,500 design.

So, 20,000/19,000 vs 20,500/13,500

When they're both brand new, its about the same, but when metal halide lamps are new, assuming proper design, they deliver beyond needed FC at surface, because the proper design is to provide proper FC at lamp mean lumen and this takes into account of 35% depreciation.

basic 400W MH is 40,000lm/24-26,000


To replace 400w MH, I would look to the six lamp units.

It would completely depend on the existing fixture. If it's getting 70% fixture efficiency, deliverable design lumen is 17,500.

4-lamp T5 with 90% utilization fixture gives you 17,100 lumen or less than 3% drop in design lumen.

If you try to match the light level of brand new MH with fluorescent, the energy saving is going to be negligible and the FC level will remain higher than necessary for the life of lamps.
When you compare a 4 lamp T5HO system with a brand new 400W MH system, it won't stand a chance.

The only reason fluorescent retrofit works is that they can be setup to deliver MH's design lumen output and hold it there. Electronic T5/T8 system is more efficient so its definitely a no brainer for brand new install.

With the advent of reduced wattage drop-in ceramic metal halide (20% depreciation), that provides same design lumen, it will challenge the necessity of remove-and-replace retrofit. Energy saving isn't as good, but upfront expense of improvement is substantially lower.

Finally, with T-5's you get SOME light almost the instant you flip the switch. No more 20-minute periods of darkness every time the power has a hiccup.
T5 or T8, they come on within two seconds, full output within a minute. if you're using special high temperature amalgam T5 which resists output fading in unconditioned high-bay installs, it will take 5-10 minutes to reach full output, but starting and restrike is instant.
 
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Electric-Light

Senior Member
For lighting design, the lamp output after 40% of useful life is used in calculation, known as "mean lumen". For critical or particularly dirty applications, then dust factor is calculated as well.

So, metal halide system will provide about 154% target foot candle on the day its commissioned. The portion of life, shaded in black squiggle is higher than necessary output. Part in pink is life spent providing below design FC. If you want to be conservative, you'll design the retrofit so that it'll never dip below the design FC level. If you want to be more aggressive on energy reduction, you can simply try to match new T8/T5 lumen value for calculating the FC level provided by metal halide at 65% life, but lamp depreciation will cause it to go under by about 6%, and add another 10% drop or so for fixture getting dirtied up.

T5 and T8 lose 5-6% in full lifetime. Life is defined as 50% of lamps going bad. If all lamps are parallel wired, then group relamp comes at about 70% of rated life, at which point re-lamping should include all optical surface cleaning as needed.

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Second, 4 - 54W T5 lamps have 5000 Lumens, whereas a 400A MH has 32,000.



Sorry, I don't care what the "specialists" say, I installed enough lights in my life to be extremely confident that 4x54W T5's are not even close to the brightness of a 400W MH.
As said before, new lumens are not as important. I use 4750 for T5, 2800 for T8, times relevant ballast factor. It's almost always 1.00 for T5. For T8, its anything between 0.77 to 1.20.

Only 400W MH that gets close to what you state is pulse start, which I see it listed as having 31,000 mean lumen. If the existing fixture is of very high optical efficiency, then six T5 lamps are needed. If it's not, you can get by with 4-5.

LLD factor is 6% for 40,000hr T5/T8 over lifetime, 30% for LEDs.
 
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S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
You guys know your lights!

You guys know your lights!

Thanks for the detailed posts Electric-light (et al) It saved me an hour research.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Foot candle readings taken at 9PM after a retrofit taken place after hours don't necessarily represent the actual performance. If it's an unconditioned space, like a hanger or some warehouse, it can get pretty hot during the day at the height lights are at.

In these applications, make sure you add these in the requirement:

Ballast shall be UL 55C ambient/90C made by GE,Advance,Philips or Universal Lighting and shall have 5 year warranty at 90C case temperature.

If they're not rated for UL 55C, they're more likely to experience premature failure in extreme temperature.

Lamps shall be Philips SILHOUETTE™ Series T5 HO Extreme Temperature or Osram Sylvania PENTRON? C HO ECOLOGIC extended temperature range amalgam type. (As far as I know, GE doesn't make this type right now).

At 55C ambient, amalgam lamps don't suffer much, but normal ones lose about 20%.

Graph can be seen here.
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/FL071.bf1b88de-8e01-429e-b949-432cb9f21994.pdf

I'm not endorsing these brands, but if you don't put these specifications in, there's a great chance you'll get stuck with eh... ballast like Fulham Workhorse or some garbage you've never even heard of. Same with lamps, especially with special amalgam type. You could end up with crap China lamps the supply house carry.
 
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