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satcom

Senior Member
The main reason the AHJ's have to put the amendments in writing is to have them passed as a law at the local level, to allow enforcement

Also changes have to be crafted to avoid conflict with underwriter guide lines, that may cost a city it's underwriting rating.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Has your area amended the NEC to reflect the work you are trying to defend?

I assume so. Do you think that every single dwelling in my state (millions?) as well as many others (CA?) has allowed code violations since forever?

Get over yourself, pull your head out of your NEC and use some common sense man. There is a whole lot going on outside of your little world.


No, unless you can post the amendment in your area that allows you to just stuff the NMs in a big hole you come across as a guy who makes his own rules up.

I'm not going to waste an afternoon researching state building code documents to prove something to some internet clown. It's the way it's done here. I didn't make the rules. I am old as hell and they have been doing it the same way since I was born (1952). You are wrong. Deal with it.
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
If you're talking about driving a self tapper into the back with a strap and use the strap to get the ty wrap around it: sure, I've done it many times.
But if you're talking about putting a strap over the wire... I think you're not code compliant.
Somewhere.

Inspector passed it, and he was hard on me for some minor stuff, so he was paying attention. I had to verify a bare neutral on existing range ckt was same size as hots, then still wanted me to tape it. Now that you've asked, I will search for any thing against metal straps, but I don't recall seeing such. After all, how much different is that from a metal nm connector that tightens down tighter than a strap? How about overdriven metal staples?
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
.......

Pay attention. This is really very simple. I learned this via the internet over the past several years.

The NEC is a guidline, not the absolute authority.

Many areas use the NEC as their complete authority and adopt the new code cycles completely and quickly.

Many areas modify it to suit their wishes. They adopt new changes when they see fit and they pick and choose which ammendments are appropriate.


Read that last part again.^ Unless you understand it, there is no point in continuing.


Examples:


My area has disallowed the hack method of using unfused, exposed SE as service conductors since the 50's. My area has also added the requirement of EGC's everywhere, some time in the 80's. My area also allows cables to be installed as pictured. They have since the 60's. Those are three significant differences.

Your area stiil allows the 3rd world installation of SE service conductors. You hack these installation in and proclaim them prefessional because the NEC allows it. In my eyes, that is about as sloppy and unprofessional as you can get. You might as well string an extension cord from the pole into the house.

My area still doesn't require arc faults "everywhere", tamper resistant anywhere or common trip on MWBC. In your eyes, that makes me, and every other contractor here, unprofessional. That's just dumb.

It's legal and it's common practice so anything I have to say about it will be directed at the code, not the installer. When you post a pic of your service, it's not likely that I will insult you personally but I will voice my opinion on the method.


You can think of the NEC as the Bible if you like, just remember that there are many different religions and interpetations of the bible and learn to accept that, even though their religion is slightly different from yours, your neighbors still believe in quality work and safe installations.




I don't mind getting "slammed". I enjoy a good debate. In this case it's you that ends up looking foolish.




It's conduit. We are not allowed to use NM for the solar installations.




Yeah, that's the final position. It looks clear to me. It may be a bit close to the bottom breaker space but it's not a concern. All the circuits in this 40 space panel are already installed.

The sub, inside has most of the branch circuits.

085.jpg

You need to remove the bonding strap from your ground bar. It looks connected, unless it is an optical illusion.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That I disagree with. It is the AHJ that is making this stuff up. It is SOP in many areas, the AHJs allow it so it is done. It was a long standing practice in our area as well and still gets passed by the AHJs in many places.

If one cop, or say one towns police dept always allows people to speed does that now mean it is now legal to speed?
 

mivey

Senior Member
If one cop, or say one towns police dept always allows people to speed does that now mean it is now legal to speed?
If a town willingly refuses to enforce a law under their jurisdiction then they have nullified the law for their jurisdiction. That is a fairly common practice with many laws but speeding is not limited to local jurisdiction as the sheriff or state officer may not be so lenient. Unlike the case where the AHJ is the sole enforcement arm for the code.

Law without penalty is not law.
 

rodneee

Senior Member
mockery of the NEC

mockery of the NEC

Occaisionally the wires just don't want to cooperate and you need to restrain them.

I used a piece of the sheath, a fender washer and self tapping screw to retain this beast(s). (sub panel and boiler feeds)

086.jpg


you my friend are an "NEC MOCKER"...you use your brain to think things out...you then design and install a SAFE and MORE FUNCTIONAL solution to a problem...all the while living with the wrath and shame of the NEC kool-aid drinkers...how dare you question the NEC... yet you fear nothing as you forward your pictures to this sight...well MR MIKE HOLT, NEC CODE MOCKING, RULE VIOLATING, PICTURE FORWARDING,MEMBER...we salute you, this bud's for you...


PS...as a knighted member of the royal society of NEC mockers you are no longer permited to answer questions on this sight with just a numerical code references...
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Please clarify. If you remove the Bonding Strap how would you bond the cabinet?

Oh man! My error, I should not read and comment after midnight. My mind was on the track of bonding neutral to cabinet while my eyes were seeing ground bar bonded to cabinet.

Pardon me while I crawl into a hole & hide my face for the next month or so.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
you my friend are an "NEC MOCKER"...you use your brain to think things out...you then design and install a SAFE and MORE FUNCTIONAL solution to a problem...all the while living with the wrath and shame of the NEC kool-aid drinkers...how dare you question the NEC... yet you fear nothing as you forward your pictures to this sight...well MR MIKE HOLT, NEC CODE MOCKING, RULE VIOLATING, PICTURE FORWARDING,MEMBER...we salute you, this bud's for you...


PS...as a knighted member of the royal society of NEC mockers you are no longer permited to answer questions on this sight with just a numerical code references...

There is nothing wrong with questioning the NEC. Lots of folks here try hard to get changes made to the NEC every cycle.
But it IS important to know what is and is not a violation. Probably the main focus of this forum.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
moderators,

wouldn't you agree that we need to keep these forums more professional and not use childish manner? Lets keep the discussion/debates at a professional level.
 

drive1968

Senior Member
I would have used some sideways facing lugs to land the two neutrals that feed the subpanels. You wouldn't have had to make those bends and strap back the wires. What size are those neutrals and is that bar rated to land that size?
 
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220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
moderators,

wouldn't you agree that we need to keep these forums more professional and not use childish manner? Lets keep the discussion/debates at a professional level.


Another internet control freak. Relax dude. This forum gets like 5 posts a day. You don't HAVE to read it. Also, your level of professionalism is not necessarily the same as others. Life would be easier if people stopped trying to force everyone into their standards.

Better yet, you could start a useful and educational thread of your own.


it IS important to know what is and is not a violation. Probably the main focus of this forum.

It's also important to know and acept that people in different parts of the country do things differently. Until the internet forums, I assumed that the NEC changed in the 80's to require EGC's everwhere. I was surprised to find it was a local amendment. I was also surprised to learn that the NEC still allowed exposed SE service conductors. That's when I started losing respect for it. ;)
 

satcom

Senior Member
moderators,

wouldn't you agree that we need to keep these forums more professional and not use childish manner? Lets keep the discussion/debates at a professional level.

Ed, please excuse some of the remarks, 99 plus percent of the guys on the site are professional and are here to help others and learn a bit themself, to stay current with the fast changing pace of this trade
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Ed, please excuse some of the remarks, 99 plus percent of the guys on the site are professional and are here to help others and learn a bit themself, to stay current with the fast changing pace of this trade

I know that.

There are other forums that i don't need to name that incubate the 1% that do not belong here.
 

Strife

Senior Member
I'm still surprised NEC allows tube and knob.
But that's besides the point.
The NEC is not perfect, some things require too little, while some require too much.
But at least is an uniform code that people can use to install electrical wiring in a relative safe manner.
Sure, it can always be safer, it can always be better, but what a lot of people don't understand there's a limited amount of money.
If I have a million dollar, do I spend it ALL on saving one life when I can save a thousand lives with that money?
There has to be a balance between safe and practical. NEC recognizes that in a lot of it's articles. Do we save one life at one trillion dollar cost?
We need an uniform code. There's nothing I hated more when (in South Florida) each city had their own little code. And there's about 100 cities down here in 3 counties.
One time I installed a switch above a gasoline dispenser, code calls for 18" above to not be considered explosion proof. I spend couple hrs to drill a 1/2" hole in a column, fish the wires and everything.
The inspector comes, and his first comment is: "The switch is not 24" above the dispenser".
I go: "It doesn't need to be. Code calls it at 18"
His reply?:"Well, I like to see it at 24"
I just couldn't help myself. I said:"Sir, as much as I would LOVE to have a crystal ball. I DON'T. If you think I will spend another 2 hrs to raise it 6" just because you don't like it, you are greatly mistaken"
Now this was when every city had their own little codes going on, and I always made a point trying to keep up with it, but there was nothing in their local code about that.

So if you want to do something above and beyond the code, I'll commend you, but one day, no matter how perfect you build it, something will happen.
And that's the day you'll realize NOTHING is perfect in this world.
You do it to your best abilities (as a professional) and that's that.

It's also important to know and acept that people in different parts of the country do things differently. Until the internet forums, I assumed that the NEC changed in the 80's to require EGC's everwhere. I was surprised to find it was a local amendment. I was also surprised to learn that the NEC still allowed exposed SE service conductors. That's when I started losing respect for it. ;)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Another internet control freak. Relax dude. This forum gets like 5 posts a day. You don't HAVE to read it. Also, your level of professionalism is not necessarily the same as others. Life would be easier if people stopped trying to force everyone into their standards.

As it just so happens, it's my job to force you to comply with my standards. Lose some of that venom, or sit in the corner for a week.
 
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