who's responsible?

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lost1found

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Location
Las Vegas NV
My local church just moved buildings and had to contract tennant appronment to a local contractor. The ahj required emergency lighting to be at a minimum candle watt and it did not pass. The E.C. had to drop lighting lower from the cieling to achieve required emergency lighting. After C of O the E.C. sent the pastor a bill for the extra work. I understand the E.C. needs to get paid if the plans called for the original lighting. My question is who should be responsible for the extra cost to pass this inspection the general contractor and engineer or the church. Thanks for your help
 

JES2727

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Do the plans specify the fixture elevation? It's the designer's responsibility to design a code compliant plan and it's the installer responsibility to provide a code compliant installation.
 

infinity

Moderator
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Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The EC would have no idea if that lighting were adequate for the required egress lighting so if he installed according to the plans he deserves to get paid for it. The GC wouldn't know this either so he's off the hook. That leaves the designer or the church on the hook for the extra money. In the end I would guess that the church would end up paying.
 

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
My question is who should be responsible for the extra cost to pass this inspection the general contractor and engineer or the church. Thanks for your help
IMO, the engineer is responsible in this type of error.

Roger
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
My local church just moved buildings and had to contract tennant appronment to a local contractor. The ahj required emergency lighting to be at a minimum candle watt and it did not pass. The E.C. had to drop lighting lower from the cieling to achieve required emergency lighting. After C of O the E.C. sent the pastor a bill for the extra work. I understand the E.C. needs to get paid if the plans called for the original lighting. My question is who should be responsible for the extra cost to pass this inspection the general contractor and engineer or the church. Thanks for your help

"Who should be" responsible could easily be a matter of opinion. But who is responsible is not, the person that authorized the work. If the pastor were in a position to authorize a change order for the extra work then it's up to the church to pay.

After the person that authorized the work has paid the contractor for doing this work he can always go to his contract with the GC and engineer and see if said work should have been covered by the original contract and maybe he can work it out with them.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
For all we know, there was no designer.

If the job was to install sufficient emergency lighting, the EC is responsible. In the very least, the EC is responsible for finding out what will be deemed sufficient.

If the job was to install emergency lighting at locations A, B, and C, then whoever told the EC where the locations were is responsible.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
IMO, the engineer is responsible in this type of error.

Roger

Sure. Blame the poor ol' engineer. :grin:

Misinterpretation


The engineer may actually be the cause of the problem.

But this is a Church so how would we know who made the decision as to the mounting height of those emergency lights?

I have done many jobs where the original plans were not followed very close. Between the GC and the owners making changes for one reason or another the job turned out very different from the plans that were submitted.

All you can hope for on a job like this is to keep the paperwork straight so that at the end of the job you don't have to eat the cost.

This is what I used to call the "finger pointing and name calling" phase of the job where everyone wants to blame all mistakes on someone else.
 

roger

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Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
The engineer may actually be the cause of the problem.

But this is a Church so how would we know who made the decision as to the mounting height of those emergency lights?

I have done many jobs where the original plans were not followed very close. Between the GC and the owners making changes for one reason or another the job turned out very different from the plans that were submitted.

All you can hope for on a job like this is to keep the paperwork straight so that at the end of the job you don't have to eat the cost.

This is what I used to call the "finger pointing and name calling" phase of the job where everyone wants to blame all mistakes on someone else.


Of course the engineer is off the hook if some one made changes or didn't follow the design but, there is no mention of the design not being followed in the OP.

If a design is changed by the GC or owner it doesn't matter to me as long as I have a CCD or something in writing instructing us to make the change.

My contract is with the GC (unless the job is multi prime) and I will bill him for the change then he will bill the owner then the owner can take it up with the A/E and they can take care of it as an error or omission

And last but not least, I would make the AHJ show me back up for his requirement. It is possible that the GC, EC, nor designer have a problem.

Roger
 
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Electric-Light

Senior Member
What is the initial scope of work?
What does the contract say?

Lacking specificity in contract, it will usually go by the uniform commercial code.

Good luck.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
In the end, my guess is everyone else will weasel out of any responsibility and the church will end up paying. That's the way these things usually work out.
 

SBuck

Member
Most jobs I have worked either had a spec or directly on the prints that states regardless of the prints the job has to be done according to local codes.

When the EC bid the job they should have had knowledge of local code. This should not be a CO to the owner.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
This should not be a CO to the owner.
Sure it should be a CO to the owner, then they can take it up with the designer.

It doesn't matter whether the EC brought it up before or after the installation, the EC didn't pick the fixtures nor did they design the job.

Installing per local codes does not take the burden of the design off of the engineer of record.

Roger
 
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