Blinking lights

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guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Customer call and said her lightings are blinking, I'm thinking loose neutral in the panel. She driving me crazy. She was having work done on her Dryer and the handy man went to turn braker off and sparks frew out from panel. I checked the bus and one stab was burn bad. The panel was a mess who ever wired it had #14 on 20 amp breakers and a spa wired with # ten romex on 40 amp breaker. Other breakers had two wires on them. I changed all the breakers. I used mini breakers so that each breaker only had one wire. Clean up and thought the panel looked good, put a blank over stab that was burn. Everything worked fine and now a week later she calls and tells her lights are blinking!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Customer call and said her lightings are blinking, I'm thinking loose neutral in the panel. She driving me crazy. She was having work done on her Dryer and the handy man went to turn braker off and sparks frew out from panel. I checked the bus and one stab was burn bad. The panel was a mess who ever wired it had #14 on 20 amp breakers and a spa wired with # ten romex on 40 amp breaker. Other breakers had two wires on them. I changed all the breakers. I used mini breakers so that each breaker only had one wire. Clean up and thought the panel looked good, put a blank over stab that was burn. Everything worked fine and now a week later she calls and tells her lights are blinking!


First you should have replaced the panel not tried to save it.


110.12(B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars,
wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be
damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as
paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.
There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect
safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment
such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by
corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.


Second did you ever verify the neutral was not bad or did you just assume the bad bus stab was the problem?
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
The bus did not need to be replace. One bad stab doesn't mean you should replace the panel. I have seen alot worst panel last for years and never have a problem. the rest of the bus was in good shape. Everything tight, no wire discolor. The only thing I didn't check was the meter, which at the time I didn't think I needed too.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
first thing you need to figure out is if the voltage fluctuation causing the blinking lights is within a branch circuit or if it is in the supply - up to and including the main breaker in the panel.

Does the change coincide with turning on/off of other loads or does it appear to be random? Do the lights ever get brighter than normal or just dim?

Applying heavy load to effected circuit will make a weak connection show itself faster.
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Well I went over and looked at panel again, she said PUCO was there and check at pole and in meter can and said everything was Ok. It was just three room where blinking was going on. I changed the three breakers and the blinking stopped. Three breakers I changed were new breakers that I just put in last week.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110529-2212 EDT

What is a blinking light?

Is it like 1 second on at full brightness, and 1 second totally off? Could be other time periods. This I would call a blinking light.

If there were minor variations in intensity and sort of random I would call it flickering, or fluctuating.

It would have been useful if you had monitored the voltage to the lights when they were flickering or blinking. Also noting whether some got brighter and others dimmer, as was pointed out above. If you had seen voltage changes on a circuit where lights were fluctuating, but did not see such variations on the main bus or service lines, then the problem would likely be between the non-fluctuating point, and the point where the variation occurred.

.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
First you should have replaced the panel not tried to save it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not replacing a customers panel for one burnt bus stab. I know what the NEC dictates and what real world common sense needs to apply here. If the main bussing appears to be in good shape with no heat marks, damage, etc, I have absolutely no problem shifting breakers and blanking off the bad stab.

I know I'm not the only one that does this...
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I'm sorry, but I'm not replacing a customers panel for one burnt bus stab.

Why?

What is the compelling reason to open yourself up to liability that you can avoid?

The state I am in requires I warranty my work for one year, that being the case I do not try to save a $150 panel that have burnt bus.


I know what the NEC dictates

Then you change the panel or become a handyman.


and what real world common sense needs to apply here.

Commonsense tells me not to put the company I work for in a position to assume additional liability just to avoid swapping a cheap panel.


If the main bussing appears to be in good shape with no heat marks, damage, etc, I have absolutely no problem shifting breakers and blanking off the bad stab.

I would do that for temp in a heartbeat until I could get the parts to do the job right.

I know I'm not the only one that does this...

I know that as well, I also know that does not make it right.


The OPs situation is a perfect example of why I feel like I do, at this point he has little change of collecting more money for the repairs even if the problem is not related to the bad panel.

If a customer has taken the time to hire a real EC and not some side jobbing handyman off of Craigs list I really think they deserve a code compliant job.
 
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guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Ok, you right. Flicking is a better term than blinking. The flicking was in one small bath room, kitchen light , hall light. Maybe I should of repace the panel but the panel look fine to me, One stab was burt, I didn't think the whole panel needed replaced. I replaced all the breakers the week before with mini breakers, all the wiring looked good, panel was clean, neutrals all tight. My first thought was loose neutral, maybe in meter panel, or maybe at the pole. Since this didn't start until after I changed the breaker I didn't it was anything in the house. Three different light socket. By chance I thought I changed the breakers because this all I did in the first place before flicking started. When I did this for the small bath room the flicking stopped, I changed the other rooms and the flicking stopped in those rooms too. I explained to her that the code say I should changed the panel but I thought the panel except for one stab was fine. If this was a mistake I don't know. When I go to my next IAEI meeting I will talk with with the inspector and get his opinion and if he think it should be replace I'll let HO know.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
Why?

What is the compelling reason to open yourself up to liability that you can avoid?

The state I am in requires I warranty my work for one year, that being the case I do not try to save a $150 panel that have burnt bus.




Then you change the panel or become a handyman.




Commonsense tells me not to put the company I work for in a position to assume additional liability just to avoid swapping a cheap panel.




I would do that for temp in a heartbeat until I could get the parts to do the job right.



I know that as well, I also know that does not make it right.


The OPs situation is a perfect example of why I feel like I do, at this point he has little change of collecting more money for the repairs even if the problem is not related to the bad panel.

If a customer has taken the time to hire a real EC and not some side jobbing handyman off of Craigs list I really think they deserve a code compliant job.

OK, you caught me. I'm a handyman straight from Craigslist.

If that panel only cost $150 to replace, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But, both you and I know, the customer will be paying far more than that to have it changed. If you're worried about liability than by all means change the panel. I just don't share your view...

To each their own...
 

mivey

Senior Member
I would not change a panel for one bad location if there were plenty of spaces left. If it were a problem with the bus in general (like the old ITEs that oxidized) I would.
 

mivey

Senior Member
First you should have replaced the panel not tried to save it.
110.12(B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars,
wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be
damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as
paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.
There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect
safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment
such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by
corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.
Assuming the problem stemmed from something other than a bad bus, I would contend that the one bad stab point does not mean that the rest of the bus will be affected. In many cases, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the remaining positions to continue to operate with no adverse effects.

Why assume that the damage would automatically affect the safe operation of the rest of the equipment?

Don't we let the second sentence 110.12(B) clarify the first sentence? If the first sentence stands alone, we have no choice but to replace the bus.
 
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