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Thread: TriPlex Bare Wire as a Neutral

  1. #21
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    Aug 2011
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    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    It is a 15 amp circuit. It is a detached garage.

  2. #22
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    Aug 2011
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    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    The two three way switches are located in the house and only the light leg i going overhead to the garage

  3. #23
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    Feb 2003
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    Mike P. Columbus Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigduvid View Post
    The two three way switches are located in the house and only the light leg i going overhead to the garage
    I'm not to bright splain to me why you have 2 3-ways 'inside' and only the switch leg going to the garage?
    Inspector Mike
    ESI

  4. #24
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    Aug 2011
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    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    I was not to bright either. The house when built, was buil with three entrances, front, side and rear. It appears that either at the time of construction in the 1920's the house was wired to chave a constant hot in the garage and the exterior light on the garage be controlled from either the side door or the rear door.

    I am understanding a fault to the neutral. The neutral is bonded to the EGC in the house main panel. If there is no panel in the garage why is it required to be bonded in the garage. If there is a fault to the neutral or to the ground rod, the circuit will trip [breaker or fuse].

  5. #25
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    Litchfield, CT
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxofaltrds View Post
    I'm not to bright splain to me why you have 2 3-ways 'inside' and only the switch leg going to the garage?
    Because they wanted to turn the light on at the garage from two separate locations, most likely two exterior doors leading to the same area.
    "Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking."

  6. #26
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    Oct 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigduvid View Post

    I am understanding a fault to the neutral. The neutral is bonded to the EGC in the house main panel. If there is no panel in the garage why is it required to be bonded in the garage. If there is a fault to the neutral or to the ground rod, the circuit will trip [breaker or fuse].
    See, thats a problem, you can't extend an ungrounded circuit. Even if GFCI protected, so the inspector was wrong in telling you he would accept this. I believe you are lacking some general electrical knowledge in area 250 of the NEC....



    This is what you are trying to accomplish!
    Last edited by stickboy1375; 07-10-12 at 07:17 AM.
    "Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking."

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Fort Collins, CO NEC: 2014
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    15,380
    Quote Originally Posted by bigduvid View Post

    Going to the garage are the leg of the three way, a hot and a neutral.

    I am replacing these three wires with a Triplex.



    If you are replacing the conductors, then you have to bring them to current code.

    In this case, I think the inspector is right to require the neutral to be insulated. 225.4.

    I don't see where an outdoor branch circuit neutral is specifically permitted to be bare. So, to get what you need done, you need three insulated conductors and a bare equipment grounding conductor.

    I don't understand how you were intending to give the garage a neutral and a fault clearing path without using the neutral for both (bonding them); this would be a violation of 250.142(B).

    Disregard the Grounding Electrode System, for a single branch circuit (assuming the hot and the switchleg are on the same circuit, you do not have to use it. I originally assumed the triplex was serving a panel.

    Note that a neutral cannot serve two circuits (200.4), so if your hot and switchleg are on different circuits you would suddenly need a second neutral and also have to tie the Grounding Electrode System at the garage to the EGC of the garage.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Mentor,Ohio USA
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    1

    Heres the code loop

    Messenger supported wiring


    396.2(4),396.10(A),TBL 396.10(A),338.10(B)(4)(b),225 Part I, 225.4 exception.

    So where is the bare "specifically permitted" to be allowed to be used as a groundeed conductor?

    230.41 exceptions (1thru 5) for services are the only sections I am aware of. Anyone have any others ?



    Quote Originally Posted by bigduvid View Post
    We have replaced the overhead feed from the house to the garage using # 6 Triplex. This is a multi branch circuit feed. The inspector is not allowing the bare wire to be used as a neutral. He is requiring it be replaced with Quadlex. We have done this many times with out objection from inspectors. Is there any code that states this installation is acceptable? Or does the code state that this installation is not acceptable?

  9. #29
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    If the installation pre dates the 2008 NEC and there is no metallic pathways between the buildings then a 3 wire triplex was allowed as a feeder to the building but not as a MWBC. When you replace the wire then it must be brought up to code. 4 wire is required unless you are on the 2005 NEC or earlier.

  10. #30
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    Feb 2003
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    Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    If the installation pre dates the 2008 NEC and there is no metallic pathways between the buildings then a 3 wire triplex was allowed as a feeder to the building but not as a MWBC. When you replace the wire then it must be brought up to code. 4 wire is required unless you are on the 2005 NEC or earlier.
    Dennis, even my 1999 NEC does not allow a bare neutral after the main service disconnect and bonding point, the neutral has always been required to be an insulated conductor after this point as far back as I can remember, ahead of the service point then you can use the 230.22 exception.

    I'm sure you were only pointing out that prior to 2008 you could use a 3-wire feed but just wanted to make clear the neutral still has to be insulated.
    Wayne A. From: N.W.Indiana
    Be Fair, Be Safe
    Just don't be fairly safe

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