ITE-Murray-Siemens breaker and panel approvals?

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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I recently posted a question about an ITE panel and its breakers which were of several different manufactures . From what I understand Siemens breakers are approved for this ITE panel. This panel also has Murray breakers which from what I understand are not approved...
I opened up a Murray panel today with Siemens breakers in it. The supply house said Siemens breakers are approved in Murray panels.. ??? Is this true and if it is are Murrays approved for ITE panels???

Thank you
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Siemens owns Murray. The Q and MP lines of breakers are physically identical these days, at least on the outside. You're never increasing the risk of a physical problem by mixing them, to my knowledge.

However... Some Siemens panels don't list Murray breakers on the label, and vice versa. (Some do.) So if you're worried about your liability in a random breaker failure instance, or you've got a persnickety inspector, read the darn label on the panel and use only the breakers listed.
 
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Little Bill

Moderator
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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
I think I posted a picture here once but can't remember. It was a Murray panel and the label said
"Use Siemens Breakers Only" and may have given part numbers as well of the Siemens breakers.
 

GoldDigger

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The advantage being any 1 of 18-compatable brands can be on panel label.
Take a closer look at the wording on the back and realize that what may appear as an incidental appearance of the manufacturer's name and logo is in fact part of the text.
It does not say "
FOR USE WITH: (XXXXXXX) ONLY WHEN THE LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT any of the above brands"
It says, literally, "FOR USE WITH: (XXXXXXX) ONLY WHEN THE LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT Connecticut Electric Quality Products"

In the US, the situation is made less clear by the fact that UL specifically lists specific replacement breakers as safe for use as replacements in certain panels BUT that does not necessarily override the restrictions placed on the panel label, which are by reference enforced by the NEC. That leaves it up to an individual jurisdiction to sort out what it will allow. I have not heard of any authoritative comment on the issue by either UL or the writers of the NEC.

The products pictured were sold in CANADA, FWIW.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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Location
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Electrical Engineer
If necessary, your local Siemens office can give you a letter certifying that Siemens and Murray breakers are one and the same. The ONLY difference is the little piece of paper with the name on it. The UL listings are under the same file and they are 100% interchangeable between the two brands. Most inspectors know this and don’t bother asking, but every once in a while you come across one who doesn’t.
 
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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Take a closer look at the wording on the back and realize that what may appear as an incidental appearance of the manufacturer's name and logo is in fact part of the text.
..literally, "FOR USE WITH: (XXXXXXX) ONLY WHEN THE LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT Connecticut Electric Quality Products"..

I believe interchangeable breakers go back to Thomas & Betts, and more recently to Eaton's "CL" line, classified replacement circuit breakers considered suitable by Underwriters Laboratories (UL), for use in another manufacturers load centers. Eaton is not required on loadcenter labels.

If Eaton can do it, why not Connecticut Electric, or Siemens, which appears on the actual breaker below?

Full.jpg
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I believe interchangeable breakers go back to Thomas & Betts, and more recently to Eaton's "CL" line, classified replacement circuit breakers considered suitable by Underwriters Laboratories (UL), for use in another manufacturers load centers. Eaton is not required on loadcenter labels.

If Eaton can do it, why not Connecticut Electric, or Siemens, which appears on the actual breaker below?

View attachment 21772
If what you have is actually a UL classified breaker, that changes things.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes, you can see UL & CSA labels on breaker in that package photo.

Can you elaborate how that changes things?
all the "big four" breakers are UL listed, but mostly only for the same brand loadcenters. A classified breaker is designed for the intent to plug onto other brand panelboards.

When you get into GE, Siemens, BR, Homeline - that concept is a little more blurry because many of those interchange pretty easily even if not listed for the combination you have. But take a QO or a CH - they won't fit anything else because their designs are unique. But other manufacturers still make a classified QO or CH breaker - those won't fit any other application even if you wanted them to.

So the question is is the "connecticut" breaker earlier mentioned a classified breaker or is it something else that has been rebranded and stuck in a package that says connecticut on it? It about has to be one or the other if it has a valid UL label. I don't see them all that often so not sure what they really are.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Yes, you can see UL & CSA labels on breaker in that package photo.

Can you elaborate how that changes things?
Someone should probably make this issue a "sticky", it comes up a lot here.

Circuit breakers that plug into or bolt directly onto a load center or panelboard bus bar must be specifically listed in combination with each and every load center / panelboard it is to be used with. These are destructive tests and they are expensive. The manufacturer of the panel will, as you might imagine, ONLY test their panels with their own breakers, they have ZERO incentive to test competitor's products, nor are they inclined to provide warranty coverage for a panel in which competitor's breakers are installed. These issues of course mean nothing when it comes to equipment that is already installed and past any warranty periods. So that's where the concept of "Classified Breakers" comes in.

Classified Breakers are the UL way of legitimizing an earlier concept often referred to an "interchangeable breakers"; essentially quasi-listing breakers made by one manufacturer for use in a panel made by another. In that process, the manufacturer of the BREAKER pays for the testing of their Classified Breaker in the panels made by their competitors. They literally buy one from a distributor and plug their classified breakers into them, then blow them up. THEY then bear the cost of these testes and absorb that into the cost of their classified breakers.

In that process, they must test their Classified Breakers in EVERY version of a competitor's panels that they want to cover. So if Connecticut Electric wants their breakers listed in Siemens panels, they must attain and test EVERY possible combination of Siemens panels that would likely work. In reality, that is way too expensive and what they do is pick out the high volume or the latest versions. They will save cost by ignoring the oldest or fringe versions, anything where their return on investment in the testing is not likely to result in enough sales to justify it. So when you open that blister pack, there is a little folded list of very specific panels that these Classified Breakers are classified to work with. It is your responsibility to ensure that your panel is on that list, and you will get zero help from the panel manufacturer if there is a question about that. Some AHJs can be real sticklers for this issue, others accept it as a fact of life, but you never know what someone will say unless you've dealt with that AHJ before.

Another "gottcha" is if your panel had a "series rating" on it, i.e. if you used a Siemens panel with a specific main breaker or it is protected by a specific upstream fuse, the 10kAIC rated branch breakers in your panel can be used on a 22kA system. But that series listing option will NOT apply to any Classified Breakers in that panel, again because that series listing option is a tested listing, paid for by the panel mfr. So if your AFC is say, 14kA, you will end up degrading that series listed panel to 10kAIC and you can't connect (legally).
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Siemens owns Murray. The Q and MP lines of breakers are physically identical these days, at least on the outside. You're never increasing the risk of a physical problem by mixing them, to my knowledge.

However... Some Siemens panels don't list Murray breakers on the label, and vice versa. (Some do.) So if you're worried about your liability in a random breaker failure instance, or you've got a persnickety inspector, read the darn label on the panel and use only the breakers listed.
Not all panels have the info... wondering what you said :- )
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
..Classified Breakers are the UL way of legitimizing an earlier concept often referred to an "interchangeable breakers"; essentially quasi-listing breakers made by one manufacturer for use in a panel made by another.

..So when you open that blister pack, there is a little folded list of very specific panels that these Classified Breakers are classified to work with. It is your responsibility to ensure that your panel is on that list, and ..Some AHJs can be real sticklers for this issue,..

Thank you for explaining this.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Take a closer look..
It says, literally, "FOR USE WITH: (XXXXXXX) ONLY WHEN THE LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT Connecticut Electric Quality Products

Connecticut Electric tech support just confirmed their ICBQ Interchangeable line is a repackaged Siemens breaker.

The tech stated that "Siemens" must appear on other panel labels, where this interchangeable product may be used, and its only mechanically compatible, not Classified the way Eaton Classified its "CL" line with UL.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
what the ???

what the ???

Did repairs on this circuits and panel today.. one circuit (breaker)was dead, one circuit was working but was told it wasn't..
tough getting off buss bars.. Murray 200 amp panel installed 2014. breaker on the left is a Murray. breaker on the right is a siemens.. I'm sure they are not the only two...
SMH !!!
 

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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
Did repairs on this circuits and panel today.. one circuit (breaker)was dead, one circuit was working but was told it wasn't..
tough getting off buss bars.. Murray 200 amp panel installed 2014. breaker on the left is a Murray. breaker on the right is a siemens.. I'm sure they are not the only two...
SMH !!!


Murray or Siemens or both is fine, read the label in your picture.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Yes. So why do you think all the breakers are burning ? any thoughts ?

Most likely they were loose on the stabs. There could have been corrosion and someone tried to clean the stabs and took too much material off making the breakers fit loose. Could even be a defect from the factory.
But the Murray breakers are identical to the Siemens, they come down the same assembly line, one goes to the Siemens stack and the next goes to the Murray stack. Only difference is the label.
 
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