No permit and no payment

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RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
gadfly56
In NJ you wouldn't need to pull a permit for this work as a "like-for-like" replacement.

Actually you often need a permit changing like for like check out the UCC 5:23-2.7 for a better idea of what does not need a permit.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
gadfly56
In NJ you wouldn't need to pull a permit for this work as a "like-for-like" replacement.

Actually you often need a permit changing like for like check out the UCC 5:23-2.7 for a better idea of what does not need a permit.

In this specific example:

3. Ordinary electrical maintenance shall include:
I. The replacement of any receptacle, switch, or lighting fixture rated at 20 amps or less and operating at less than 150 volts to ground with a like or similar item, including receptacles in locations where ground-fault circuit interrupter protection is required;
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Long story short. I was sitting in court one day and a tile guy was suing a couple for payment. They're argument was that he didn't have a contractors license. The judge asked if he did a good job and if they knew that he didn't have a license when they hired him. The replied yes to both and were then ordered to pay and if they had a problem with the license to take it up with the contractors board.

You cannnot agree to pay someone for the work they do and then renig on that agreement after the work is done, only before.
 

satcom

Senior Member
Long story short. I was sitting in court one day and a tile guy was suing a couple for payment. They're argument was that he didn't have a contractors license. The judge asked if he did a good job and if they knew that he didn't have a license when they hired him. The replied yes to both and were then ordered to pay and if they had a problem with the license to take it up with the contractors board.

You cannnot agree to pay someone for the work they do and then renig on that agreement after the work is done, only before.

Yes, same in ny state the license issue has nothing to do with an agreement and monies owed, we have hundreds of guys that are not licensed in our state or any other state, but they pour in here with their nice new plain white vans and ladder racks, no names or Id on the trucks and they do everything from resi to commercial fit up work they just get paid before they leave the job or the sun comes up which ever comes first the ligit licensed EC'.s must like these guys eating their lunch, they never complain to the license board or turn them in.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I skimmed this thread way to fast and missed that it was about a receptacle replacement. You are right. My apologies gadfly.

The thread was not started with a specific task in mind. Just any task that required a permit but one wasn't pulled. If you would be weary of taking legal action to get paid for the job for fear of repercussions for not pulling permit.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
If there's no permit, for whatever the reason, I don't leave without making definite plans for payment. And 99% of the time I leave with cash or a check. If the check bounces or anything like that, there's already intent to pay me.
 

Mulrooney

Member
You can always get an after the fact permit. But depending on the scope of work you did you may have some explaining to do. Maybe just say It slipped through the cracks or you thought one of your employees took care of it. But It won't help you get paid. Even if a judge finds in your favor he can't make anyone pay you. You should also know that you only have 90 days from the last day worked to place a mechanics lien on a property. I found that one out the hard way.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You can always get an after the fact permit. But depending on the scope of work you did you may have some explaining to do. Maybe just say It slipped through the cracks or you thought one of your employees took care of it. But It won't help you get paid. Even if a judge finds in your favor he can't make anyone pay you. You should also know that you only have 90 days from the last day worked to place a mechanics lien on a property. I found that one out the hard way.

I have placed lien on property well past 90 days before.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
No disrespect to Mulrooney, but the matter needs a little expansion .... and, btw, I have issues with a few other assertions others have made:

First off, ANYTHING can happen in court. The 'good book' makes this point repeatedly, in warning us to avoid courts at all costs. Just because "I saw it happen" does not mean the judge was correct.

A court cannot / will not / should not enforce an illegal contract. That's why (non-casino) gambling debts are not collectible through the courts - nor are drug deals, prostitution agreements .... OR contracts made by unlicensed contractors. That's one of the ways the laws are enforced. That said, judges are no fools, and will often find a way to act when they feel someone is 'finessing' the system.

Liens are wonderful things, but the specifics vary greatly from place to place. Most important are the differences in the required notice and time constraints. Perhaps that's why both jurisdictions where I hold licenses featured lien questions on their tests.

Judges can't "make" someone pay? Excuse me? "Making" folks do things they don't want to do is exactly the business judges are in. OK, they can't "make YOU," but they can send the constable to seize your assets and distribute tham as HE sees fit, and they can send you to prison. Your cheerful co-operation is not required; if necessary they'll have the marshall "help" you along. Early in WW2, there was a very famous news picture of marshalls physically carrying the head of Montgomery Ward out of his office, still on his chair. Don't tell me the judge can't "make" you do things.

That all aside, the lack of a permit does not, IMO, void a contract. It may be grounds for a complaint against you with the contractors' board, and the jurisdiction may assess other penalties for your not having one ... but voiding the contract is not one of them. If the town orders the work stopped, the customer is still responsible for the work already performed. Who's responsible for paying permit fees is a separate matter. Likewise, inspection activities may result in the contractor suffering losses.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
From the Contractors State License Board:

"When a contractor performs work that requires a permit and doesn't have one, a local building department can issue a "Stop Work" notice and assess fines against the property owner. Contractors who violate the permit process may be held responsible for any fine issued to the property owner by the building department, as well as the cost of complying with the code requirements."

"Contractors who break these laws are subject to disciplinary action by the CSLB. The contractor may be subject to civil penalties of up to $5,000 per citation and/or suspension or revocation of their license."

So I would be careful how hard I pushed on a job that required a permit if I didn't have one.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
From the Contractors State License Board:

"When a contractor performs work that requires a permit and doesn't have one, a local building department can issue a "Stop Work" notice and assess fines against the property owner. Contractors who violate the permit process may be held responsible for any fine issued to the property owner by the building department, as well as the cost of complying with the code requirements."

"Contractors who break these laws are subject to disciplinary action by the CSLB. The contractor may be subject to civil penalties of up to $5,000 per citation and/or suspension or revocation of their license."

So I would be careful how hard I pushed on a job that required a permit if I didn't have one.

My question is why is the property owner the one being fined? If I hire someone to build me a house then that is what I want from them - a house. A permit is part of the process. If you have a contract that says owner is responsible for obtaining permit then that changes things. At least it was brought to owners attention otherwise owner is expecting the house and whatever it necessary to have the house.

When you buy a new car don't you expect to be able to drive it off the dealer lot?
 

tommyrice

Member
pulling permit after the fact

pulling permit after the fact

we can't pull a permit here unless we have a signed contract
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
we can't pull a permit here unless we have a signed contract

That is BS. Your running of your business has nothing to do with permits and inspections and is none of the business of the AHJ. Only thing that is business of AHJ is whether or not you file permit, whether or not you have proper licensing, and whether you have submitted correct fees for those types of items, and of course whether or not your installation meets adopted codes and standards.
 

Benton

Senior Member
Location
Louisiana
Tell that they need a permit and they'll hire the guy who doesn't require one. In this case you just have to hope that you are a good judge of character.
 

satcom

Senior Member
That is BS. Your running of your business has nothing to do with permits and inspections and is none of the business of the AHJ. Only thing that is business of AHJ is whether or not you file permit, whether or not you have proper licensing, and whether you have submitted correct fees for those types of items, and of course whether or not your installation meets adopted codes and standards.

That may be the way it is in your state, but some state have consumer protection laws that may require a contractor to have in his possession a signed contract before any construction permits are issued.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That may be the way it is in your state, but some state have consumer protection laws that may require a contractor to have in his possession a signed contract before any construction permits are issued.

Don't you just love big brother holding your hand with everything you do?

After hearing what some others have to go through on a regular basis I'm just happy my big brother lets go of my hand from time to time. He still has to watch though.

How many service or installation businesses outside of construction trades have to put up with this nonsense?
 

satcom

Senior Member
Don't you just love big brother holding your hand with everything you do?

After hearing what some others have to go through on a regular basis I'm just happy my big brother lets go of my hand from time to time. He still has to watch though.

How many service or installation businesses outside of construction trades have to put up with this nonsense?

Your comment about how many business outside of construction trades have to put up with this nonsense, reminds me for our state sales tax laws where all contractors must pay sales tax at time of purchase, while all other retail and service business do not pay until after the sale ,
We as contractors are guilty of theft , without benefit of trial or jury, presumed guilt,
Well this is New Jersey where they beat up and abuse business of all size and then wonder why companies leave, and we loose jobs, at a time when we need jobs.
 

Mike Lang

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Just because you didn't take out a permit doesn't mean that you didn't do the work and you shouldn't get paid for it. If you're a licensed and insured electrical contractor I'd go knock on their door and ask for your money. If they say I don't have it... say that you can wait right there for them to go to the bank and come back.
Or you can call them and advise them that you'll be giving the remaining balance to a collection agency if you don't recieve payment in 7 days.

I've been through this more than I'd like to admit, and I'm sick of it myself. If they're treating you this way you don't want anymore of their work anyway.
Just be firm and never stop asking so eventually they will pay you just to get you off their back. That's exactly what the collection agencies do and it works for them. I know saying this and doing it are 2 different things I have plenty of money out right now that I can't collect either.
Good luck
 

satcom

Senior Member
Just because you didn't take out a permit doesn't mean that you didn't do the work and you shouldn't get paid for it. If you're a licensed and insured electrical contractor I'd go knock on their door and ask for your money. If they say I don't have it... say that you can wait right there for them to go to the bank and come back.
Or you can call them and advise them that you'll be giving the remaining balance to a collection agency if you don't recieve payment in 7 days.

I've been through this more than I'd like to admit, and I'm sick of it myself. If they're treating you this way you don't want anymore of their work anyway.
Just be firm and never stop asking so eventually they will pay you just to get you off their back. That's exactly what the collection agencies do and it works for them. I know saying this and doing it are 2 different things I have plenty of money out right now that I can't collect either.
Good luck

This is New Jersey the law requires a contract, and permit on new work, if you do an illegal job don't expect any help collecting payment.
 
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