Vermiculite insulation

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jeff48356

Senior Member
As some of you may be aware, some homes have been insulated with vermiculite insulation, which potentially contains asbestos. Suppose you are hired by a homeowner to install recessed lighting in a house, and discover that the attic has this type of insulation. How would you handle it? Is the best thing to do just simply inform the customer and walk away from the job due to health risks? Or advise the homeowner to have the material tested at a lab for asbestos before continuing with the project? Does anyone have any experience with this?
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
As some of you may be aware, some homes have been insulated with vermiculite insulation, which potentially contains asbestos. Suppose you are hired by a homeowner to install recessed lighting in a house, and discover that the attic has this type of insulation. How would you handle it? Is the best thing to do just simply inform the customer and walk away from the job due to health risks? Or advise the homeowner to have the material tested at a lab for asbestos before continuing with the project? Does anyone have any experience with this?

if the house is pre 1978, there is also RRP, lead paint abatement requirements.
i'd have the paint tested at the same time. if it has lead, and most things will
if they are pre '78, you have to have a cert from the EPA for that as well.
don't get caught cutting drywall without a test certificate, or a RRP license.
healthy, repeat healthy, fines in this part of the country.

some vermiculite is asbestos free. some contains up to 20% asbestos.
you have to test to see which it is. very little of it is asbestos free.

as a kid, my neighbors used to rototill it into their flower beds as mulch.
they used the cheapest they could find. guess which one that is?

you have to be licensed in california to abate asbestos.

if there is enough work to justify it, i'd have it tested myself.
the last service i used for this would do carry in's for $25 each.
if i have to deal with it, i want my own test, not the word of someone
else's test.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
As some of you may be aware, some homes have been insulated with vermiculite insulation, which potentially contains asbestos. Suppose you are hired by a homeowner to install recessed lighting in a house, and discover that the attic has this type of insulation. How would you handle it? Is the best thing to do just simply inform the customer and walk away from the job due to health risks? Or advise the homeowner to have the material tested at a lab for asbestos before continuing with the project? Does anyone have any experience with this?
I would advise the homeowner to have it tested, they need to know for themselves as well, it's dangerous stuff because it is essentially always "friable", meaning it can be easily made airborne and inhaled.

There was a portable tester released last year that a lot of labs have now. The tester costs around $50k so it's not something you or I would go out and buy, but many of the professional testing labs have them. With that they can tell you almost immediately if the vermiculite was from Libby Montana (which is the only mining site that also contained asbestos). But something like 80% of the vermiculite used in ceiling insulation came from Libby. (I know all of this because I had it in my house when I bought it 22 years ago and getting it tested back then was a major cluster-f. The lab that did that testing sent me an update letter last June telling me they bought one of those hand-held spectrometers now so they can do it faster if I ever come across more of it.)
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
As some of you may be aware, some homes have been insulated with vermiculite insulation, which potentially contains asbestos. Suppose you are hired by a homeowner to install recessed lighting in a house, and discover that the attic has this type of insulation. How would you handle it?

Asbestos aside, with a big garbage can under each hole. That and then swimming through the stuff to pull wire. That alone would make me think twice. Thank God I never ran into this but I would probably recommend that the customer have that stuff vacuumed out before I would do anything. After I finished he could have it re-insulated with a current product.

-Hal
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would have them remove it.
I ran into an similar situation years ago. The customer wanted 12 recessed lights installed in their home office suite which was actually in in-law apartment.
It was a drop ceiling tight up against the attic crawl space joists. The old fiberglass insulation was staples between the joists like you would do on a wall and on top of the insulation was a nasty rock wool blown in insulation.

I told them that they needed to remove all the insulation before I would start the job and they did.

I referred them to an insulating company that sucks out old insulation.

Note : I had them remove the insulation just for the sheer mess this was going to cause.
Good luck.
 

jeff48356

Senior Member
I would have them remove it.
I ran into an similar situation years ago. The customer wanted 12 recessed lights installed in their home office suite which was actually in in-law apartment.
It was a drop ceiling tight up against the attic crawl space joists. The old fiberglass insulation was staples between the joists like you would do on a wall and on top of the insulation was a nasty rock wool blown in insulation.

I told them that they needed to remove all the insulation before I would start the job and they did.

I referred them to an insulating company that sucks out old insulation.

Note : I had them remove the insulation just for the sheer mess this was going to cause.
Good luck.

Nowadays, this would hardly be necessary in that situation, because they make "canless" recessed lights now. You cut a regular 6" can hole, but there is a separate junction box and light unit which clamps into the hole. Ideal for tight spaces.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Nowadays, this would hardly be necessary in that situation, because they make "canless" recessed lights now. You cut a regular 6" can hole, but there is a separate junction box and light unit which clamps into the hole. Ideal for tight spaces.

These new "canless" lights will cause the same mess. You still have to cut the same 6" hole which will let the insulation fall through. Same prep work, just not using a typical can housing.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
I referred them to an insulating company that sucks out old insulation.

i removed all the old icky blown in insulation from my attic personally.
20 hp blower with 3' x 8' long cheesecloth bags to catch it, sitting in
the front yard. 6" hose. july in so calif. wife would stand in the front
yard, and when the bag got full, she'd shut off the engine.

i'd come down out of the attic, tie off the bag, tie on a new one,
go into the back yard, strip off the tyvek suit, and jump in the pool
naked. float for ten minutes, and get out, dry off, put on a new
bunny suit, and the purple facemask, and go back up for another
bag full. i think it was 7 or 8 bags.

i kept telling myself that the blower was free to use, and this wasn't
costing me anything. it cost, but not in money.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
We demolished three lime kilns about 30 years back. Built in the 50’s there was blue asbestos everywhere. The containment tents were impressive to say the least, 60ft high and covering an acre of ground. My role in the project was to identify the cables that passed through to containment area and make safe. It took a long time.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Realistically, this is what will happen: You will tell them they likely have a dangerous health hazard in their attic and you would like to do the job, but cannot for your safety and theirs until they have the insulation tested and if positive for asbestos, removed. They will call another electrician who will do it.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Realistically, this is what will happen: You will tell them they likely have a dangerous health hazard in their attic and you would like to do the job, but cannot for your safety and theirs until they have the insulation tested and if positive for asbestos, removed. They will call another electrician who will do it.

deep insight is strong with this one.....
 
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