Removal of Abandoned Comm / Lo Voltage Wiring

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hockd

Member
Is anyone aware of a change int he Code requiremnt to remove abandoned comm wiring that includes a time frame? We are moving our call center and this requires tearing down all the modular furniture. This will leave the drop cables termionated in the closets but loose on the floor.

During our weekly project update meeting the Project manager stated that he doesn't have to worry about removal as he has six months to declare the cable "abandoned". Upon my querring him fuurther he stated its in the code.

My transmission engineer and I have reviewed the 2005, 2008 (which we believ to be the code Detroit is using) and the 2011 code but cannot find any referecne to a six month or other time frame in which to declare the wiring as abandoned and need to remove it.

Are we missing something?? or is this project manager confused??

Thank you,
Dennis Hock
DTE Energy
Detroit, MI
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Are you still going to maintain the space for another use. If so I would coil up the cable and label it for future use. The time frame may be langauge in the lease or local building code, you are correct there is no definite time frame listed in the NEC.
 

ron

Senior Member
I believe the requirement for removing abandoned cable is found in several places in the NEC, 800.25 being one.

The definition of abandoned communications cable found in 800.2 just says that it is not terminated at both ends and not labeled as future with a tag. No time limit. So the instant it is disconnected on both ends without a future tag, it needs to be removed.
 

hockd

Member
Removal of Abandoned Comm - Lo-Voltage Wiring

Removal of Abandoned Comm - Lo-Voltage Wiring

Ron and Joe,

Thank you both for taking the time to respond. In answer to Joes questions we do not intend to reuse the building and are exiting it with real estate trying to sell it. To Rons comment, yes that is what I thought as well. The minute it becomes disconnected and is no longer tagged and terminated it needs to be removed.

As Joe pointed out maybe there is some local code requirement that overrides but as the building is in Southfield, MI and they are pretty strigent I can't imagine that being the case here.

Thanks for the good advice as always,

Dennis Hock
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I don't remember where I saw it but I vaguely remember, probably new for the next code cycle, where a tenant will have to remove all LV wiring and devices from a space upon leaving and restore it to the way it was when they moved in. Tagging will no longer allowed, everything must go, period.

-Hal
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I don't remember where I saw it but I vaguely remember, probably new for the next code cycle, where a tenant will have to remove all LV wiring and devices from a space upon leaving and restore it to the way it was when they moved in. Tagging will no longer allowed, everything must go, period.

-Hal

I for one would be very interested where you read that. (no pressure:lol:)
 

hockd

Member
Removal of Abandoned Comm Lo Voltage Wiring

Removal of Abandoned Comm Lo Voltage Wiring

I believe I too recall reading that some where but for the life of me I cannot recall where. So I would also be interested if you happen to recall where it was you read it. Seems in closing that our project manager is confused.

we have been having some words as he doesn't want to provison the telecom closet wiring per section 400.8 USES NOT PERMITTED for flexible cords and cables. Seems some of our people think nothing of putting in an extension cord for decades rather than coming up with budget to fisx appropriately.

Dennis Hock
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I don't remember where I saw it but I vaguely remember, probably new for the next code cycle, where a tenant will have to remove all LV wiring and devices from a space upon leaving and restore it to the way it was when they moved in. Tagging will no longer allowed, everything must go, period.

-Hal

I hope that is untrue or does not happen, to me that goes beyond anything that the code should require.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I for one would be very interested where you read that.

Believe me, so would I. I thought it might have been here but no. Maybe in a trade magazine or in an email.

-Hal
 

CLTech

New member
I don't remember where I saw it but I vaguely remember, probably new for the next code cycle, where a tenant will have to remove all LV wiring and devices from a space upon leaving and restore it to the way it was when they moved in. Tagging will no longer allowed, everything must go, period.
I've ran the LV specs for a company with offices all over the US - when we did the Phoenix, AZ office - I found that seemed to be the norm there; all cabling pulled completely out of the walls.

I'm fine with how it's done in CA - if it's not terminated, get it out there and out of the way; but no reason to waste money and resources replacing it for no reason; anyone who ever came into an office I wired would likely not need to run anything new for at least 15 years because of the versatility I build in.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
... no reason to waste money and resources replacing it for no reason; anyone who ever came into an office I wired would likely not need to run anything new for at least 15 years because of the versatility I build in.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that even the best installation tends to turn to crap in a short time once the owner or his computer geek get their hands on it. Also, how many times is a space re-rented without renovation where at the minimum work stations are moved and often the entire server room too. So your installation may be versatile to your customer and your thinking but not usable to whoever comes later.

I think who ever this requirement is coming from is just saying that the argument that there is no reason to waste money and resources replacing it for no reason is just an excuse. Who's to determine whether it's usable or not? You may think it's valuable but more often than not the next tenant won't and will overbuild it and just leave the old stuff up there. So the best policy is that if you put it there you pull all of it out when you leave. Don't worry about the next guy.

-Hal
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
The people who own it, and only the people who own it.

:lol: Right there is the reason for the requirement. The people who own it aren't about to spend a cent to remove something nobody even sees unless they are forced to, so they are always going to say it's usable. The Code is full of "silly" requirements it seems. For instance, why not just allow builders and homeowners to decide how many and where to install receptacles instead of wasting money locating them every twelve feet? "I'm putting a couch against that wall, I'm not paying for a receptacle behind it."

-Hal
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
While I am sure there was a reason in the substantiation, I am not sure that it is a "real" safety related reason. The most common reason I hear is the toxic smoke issue, but I don't see that as a real reason. The small amount of toxic materials in the cabling, as compared to what is in the furnishing and finishes of the building, would not make any measurable difference. The other reason I hear is the possible entanglement of fire fighters if the ceiling grid and the cables above the grid would collapse. This is more of a real reason, but there is no limit on the number of active cables so is it really a real reason? Also the entanglement caused by the grid and the grid support wires is much more difficult to get out of than that caused by cabling.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
The small amount of toxic materials in the cabling...

In many cases it is far from a small amount, particularly when it is left to accumulate over many generations of tenants. I've personally had to remove bundles of cable at least 6" in diameter just from one tenant occupancy. I had to cut up with a Sawzall and we filled two 20yd containers.

I don't know about today, but plenum listed cable from the past contained lead in the outside jacket compound which generates lead dust.

-Hal
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The small amount of toxic materials in the cabling...

In many cases it is far from a small amount, particularly when it is left to accumulate over many generations of tenants. I've personally had to remove bundles of cable at least 6" in diameter just from one tenant occupancy....
When compared to the amount of toxic smoke that will be produced by the buildings finishes and furnishings, it will still be a small amount. Take a look around a typical office...the desks, chairs, computers, other office equipment, the carpet, the wall coverings and many other things are all made of materials that will produce toxic smoke when they burn.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I'm not saying that I disagree with you. Remember, these are the same folks who require tamper resistant receptacles because some kid reportedly stuck his elbow in the slots.

-Hal
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Ron and Joe,

Thank you both for taking the time to respond. In answer to Joes questions we do not intend to reuse the building and are exiting it with real estate trying to sell it. To Rons comment, yes that is what I thought as well. The minute it becomes disconnected and is no longer tagged and terminated it needs to be removed.

As Joe pointed out maybe there is some local code requirement that overrides but as the building is in Southfield, MI and they are pretty strigent I can't imagine that being the case here.

Thanks for the good advice as always,

Dennis Hock

There are provisions at the end of a lease where tenants must demo out cabling, etc., and in extreme situations rip out walls, ceilings, etc. Not sure if it is in any local codes here.
 
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