Need for Grounded Outlets in Rentals? - Landlord responsibilities?

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ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
When a person rents a place without any grounded outlets do they have any recourse to demand a few grounded outlets be installed? Assuming no grounds are available (old two wire only wiring).

I am only talking one or two outlets for items such as the Refrigerator and possibly a Microwave oven?

With the understanding that GFCI's could be installed to meet certain needs(in lieu of a equipment ground conductor) , what about some equipment that states on the device that it must be grounded?
The Microwave being the most notorious. From reading other posts on similar subjects I also heard refrigerators mentioned.

It would be my understanding that items with such a "ground required" label could not be operated on a GFCI only. The ground is mandatory?

Assuming the above is true ,then what do people do when they rent and there are no grounded outlets? Of course (for the most part) they are not interested in paying an electrician to install grounded wiring to outlets themselves. May not even be allowed by the landlord, if they were willing to fund it themselves?

What would the landlord be responsible for if anything? I could see them refusing to install grounded circuits for anything not necessarily needed (including a Microwave or Air Conditioner).

I would think that there would have to be at least one installed for the refrigerator. I don't think many people can go without a refrigerator these days?
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I would have no problem plugging in a fridge/micro into a GFCI without an EGC. I would just shrug at the insistence of the manufacture to have a ground and not give it a second thought. Yes.. That's right, I live on the knife's edge baby! Caution to the wind!
 

jumper

Senior Member
I would have no problem plugging in a fridge/micro into a GFCI without an EGC. I would just shrug at the insistence of the manufacture to have a ground and not give it a second thought. Yes.. That's right, I live on the knife's edge baby! Caution to the wind!


Heck, I am currently renting a house with all ungrounded receptacles and no GFCI protection.

I ain't scared, grandma and grandpa were just fine with two wire receptacles.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
When a person rents a place without any grounded outlets do they have any recourse to demand a few grounded outlets be installed? Assuming no grounds are available (old two wire only wiring).

I am only talking one or two outlets for items such as the Refrigerator and possibly a Microwave oven?

With the understanding that GFCI's could be installed to meet certain needs(in lieu of a equipment ground conductor) , what about some equipment that states on the device that it must be grounded?
The Microwave being the most notorious. From reading other posts on similar subjects I also heard refrigerators mentioned.

It would be my understanding that items with such a "ground required" label could not be operated on a GFCI only. The ground is mandatory?

Assuming the above is true ,then what do people do when they rent and there are no grounded outlets? Of course (for the most part) they are not interested in paying an electrician to install grounded wiring to outlets themselves. May not even be allowed by the landlord, if they were willing to fund it themselves?

What would the landlord be responsible for if anything? I could see them refusing to install grounded circuits for anything not necessarily needed (including a Microwave or Air Conditioner).

I would think that there would have to be at least one installed for the refrigerator. I don't think many people can go without a refrigerator these days?

I know nothing in the NEC that addresses what a tenant would like to have in the place they rent.

I also know nothing in local codes that gives a tenant such power.

As for what people do when they rent and there is no grounded outlets, I will tell you. This is from personal, true experience.

They will either use an adapter or illegally put a three hole receptacle on a two wire circuit.

Replacing old existing two wire circuits can be a real PITA, and that is one reason the NEC allows that if an installation was code compliant at the time of installation, there is no NEC requirement to constantly bring it up to code as the code changes.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Heck, I am currently renting a house with all ungrounded receptacles and no GFCI protection.

I ain't scared, grandma and grandpa were just fine with two wire receptacles.

And not only knob and tube, but uninsulated wiring in the attic. One bare neutral down the center and a hot on each side. Insulated conductors were soldered onto the bare 'service wires' without boxes.

OK, that is a bit old (turn of the century) but the house I am in my grandpa built in the 40's and there are plenty of splices outside boxes and so far they haven't killed anyone.

BUT.....and this is something to think about, all the stuff they plugged in was well built and made in the good old USA, not the cheap crap we buy and plug into the walls now.

I'll go with GFCI's, with or without grounded conductors and that's my final answer.

:D
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Many cities have ordinances on the books that deal with rental properties and the responsibilities of the owners.

Indeed, but it's the city that can make the demands, not the tenant. The most the tenant could do would be to make a complaint.

And furthermore, how many cities demand two wire circuits to be replaced with three wire circuits in existing installations? I have heard of requiring GFCI's and installing lights over doors, but never have I heard of demanding that two wire circuits be upgraded to three (without other circumstances).
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
Thanks for your opinions, I was unsure of my answer. I got asked the question by a young man renting an old house.

When both the appliance and the 3-2 prong adapters state clearly that, " The grounding continuity must be maintained" . The adapter also states , " do not use without the green tab connected".

So I was hard pressed to advice him to ignore these statements. I advised him at a minimum to use one of those moveable GFCI plugins (within its wattage rating).

I further told him that some appliances have internal EMI filters, with common mode protection, that rely on the ground connection. If the ground connection is lifted the case of the appliance may rise up to 1/2 of the line voltage or ~60Vac. This due to a capacitive divider in the filter. As long as these capacitors do not fail you probably would not even feel the small current going through your body if you touched the case and ground at the same time. If one of these capacitors were to fail shorted then you could die ... doing the same.

So while the risk may be relatively small I would never advise floating the ground, on three prong equipment with a metal case, without using a GFCI.

I felt I may have been a little over protective so I wanted some other opinions and I thank you for yours.


I also did a little study on Microwave schematics and found several with internal EMI filters as well as learning something I did not know. The High voltage supply for the Magnetron utilizes the metal case to conduct current between the tube and the high voltage supply components.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think if he is concerned about the lack of the ground he should move out.

My guess is he is looking for some kind of angle to use against the landlord.

Better you don't get involved IMO. The kid is not going to pay you anything to fix the old wiring and the landlord won't either. There is just nothing in it for you.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I am no lawyer but I believe the tenant saw the place before they rented it so I can't imagine any recourse other than to pay for it themselves.
 

WorkSafe

Senior Member
Location
Moore, OK
We have rent houses that have to get inspected by the city anytime a new tenant moves in. We have had to make numerous upgrades, like adding GFCI's to ungrounded circuits, add hand rails to simple two-three step steps, etc. It's just more of an avenue for the city to get money on re-inspections.

It has it's advantages though. A inspector found that the contractor we used to install a A/C compressor outside 7 years ago wired it with 12ga NM. Had Nm exposed from the outside panel box all the way across the outside of the house to the disconnect. The sun pretty much damaged that yellow jacket.

Anyways, I would consider what the tenant was requesting if it made them happy, as long as it was cost effective.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
I think if he is concerned about the lack of the ground he should move out.

My guess is he is looking for some kind of angle to use against the landlord.

Better you don't get involved IMO. The kid is not going to pay you anything to fix the old wiring and the landlord won't either. There is just nothing in it for you.

I have learned over time that when I post here to expect some negativity but that is so far off the mark.

The young man is my son and as a parent I worry about his safety. Thus I was trying to provide him with the best advice I could.
As always I am interested in the technical aspects of these issues more so than the political.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I have learned over time that when I post here to expect some negativity but that is so far off the mark.

The young man is my son and as a parent I worry about his safety. Thus I was trying to provide him with the best advice I could.
As always I am interested in the technical aspects of these issues more so than the political.

Go put some GFCIs if for him man. That should allow you to sleep easy.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
I think if he is concerned about the lack of the ground he should move out.

My guess is he is looking for some kind of angle to use against the landlord.

Better you don't get involved IMO. The kid is not going to pay you anything to fix the old wiring and the landlord won't either. There is just nothing in it for you.

I have learned over time that when I post here to expect some negativity but that is so far off the mark.

The young man is my son and as a parent I worry about his safety. Thus I was trying to provide him with the best advice I could.
As always I am interested in the technical aspects of these issues more so than the political.

As a principle of law, no one can force the landlord to upgrade existing installations even when doing repairs. It is the responsibility of the tenant to inspect the premises before signing the lease to determine if it meets his needs. Unless specified in the lease the tenant may make no repairs beyond standard preventive maintenance expected of any household. Should the tenant fail to maintain minimal maintenance the tenant can be charged the full price of a repair. Should the tenant exceed standard maintenance then he can be charged by the landlord to have it professionally inspected.

In practice, state and local laws enforce upgrades when a performed repair is extensive enough to be considered a renovation or new installation. Most landlords are willing to work a deal with professionals residing in their property or who are related to tenants. For the sake of liability present the offer as a valid contract quote not as a favor by either party. Remember that to be a valid contract that they will have to pay something even if it's only the parts at wholesale discount.

As the tenant is your son you know half the parties involved. Were you to get involved in a similar situation without knowing either the landlord or the tenant you should be aware of what you're facing: Most tenants that ask you such a question don't have the money for the repairs or were just curious. The remaining (about 10%) are looking to coerce the landlord. I have over 50 rental units and have been dealing with rental property for 40 years. No tenant has ever performed a major repair on their own without my having to evict and correct the damage. I have voluntarily done numerous upgrades because I want to keep good tenants. These are done wholly at my expense. I don't believe I have any appliance outlets left that are less than three wire. I have very few major appliance outlets left that are not four-wire. If you present your quote with before and after discount then you might be surprised by their reaction. Or not.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
Thank you pfalcon for the straight forward explanation and the benefit of your experience.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
In what world can a tenant make those kind of changes without the owner's permission?

My personal view is there are two distinct situations here. The one I was commenting on was the one were I felt uneasy about my son's situation and felt putting in GFCIs would be best. In that world those changes can be made extremely easily.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Are we talking 'design philosophy' or 'legal philosophy?' In either instance, it's outside the scope of the NEC and any construction code. In a rare circumstance, a 'housing code' might have some bearing.

In terms of electrical design, any place old enough to have 2-wire circuits has all manner of deficiencies, when looked at with today's NEC requirements. A complete rewire will mean you get to make all these other changes as well.

In legal terms, the tenant has his own responsibility to rent something suitable to him - and you are not under any obligation to meet the 'latest' code or cater to his desires. His remedy is to rent elsewhere. You do have a duty to ensure that what you have in safe; that is, not deteriorated and in good repair, good working order. About the only NEC requirement that has bearing is to replace the bath receptacle with a GFCI. How you are to do this if the only receptacle is in a light fixture is not addressed.

It's not likely that any 50+ year-old place has gone unchanged since it was built. It is with these changes that most issue (both legal and technical) arise. "When" something was done, and by whom, is more important than simply 'what' was done. A place in good repair and unchanged from the start is as code compliant as anything built today.

In practical terms, it's time you started planning for a complete-gut remodel.
 
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