Inspector fails us because POE Ip cameras are not UL approved!

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mstrmp3

Member
hand to God, that is the only reason we failed an inspection...because the POE cameras we used (Toshiba) were not UL. (The POE network switch IS UL). I've never even seen an UL poe IP camera before! Where is it listed in the NEC that something like a 12v dc IP camera needs a UL listing?

:rant:
 

jumper

Senior Member
110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or
permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.

Informational Note: See 90.7, Examination of Equipment
for Safety, and 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation,
and Use of Equipment. See definitions of Approved,
Identified, Labeled, and Listed.
 

james_mcquade

Senior Member
from NEC 70 - 2008 cycle
Art 100 - definitions.
Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.
FPN: The means for identifying listed equipment may vary for each organization concerned with product evaluation, some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to identify a listed product.

regards,
james
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Where is it listed in the NEC that something like a 12v dc IP camera needs a UL listing?

:rant:
It is not an NEC issue, it is however an NC statute.

? 66‑25. Acceptable listings as to safety of goods.
All electrical materials, devices, appliances, and equipment shall be evaluated for safety and suitability for intended use. This evaluation shall be conducted in accordance with nationally recognized standards and shall be conducted by a qualified testing laboratory. The Commissioner of Insurance, through the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance, shall implement the procedures necessary to approve suitable national standards and to approve suitable qualified testing laboratories. The Commissioner may assign his authority to implement the procedures for specific materials, devices, appliances, or equipment to other agencies or bodies when they would be uniquely qualified to implement those procedures.
In the event that the Commissioner determines that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment in question cannot be adequately evaluated through the use of approved national standards or by approved qualified testing laboratories, the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall specify any alternative evaluations which safety requires.
The Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall keep in file, where practical, copies of all approved national standards and resumes of approved qualified testing laboratories. (1933, c. 555, s. 3; 1989, c. 681, s. 1.)
Consider it a lesson learned

Roger
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Yeah, risking the companies license is most definitely worth it.:roll:

Here we go again!

So what is the risk to the company?

The cameras could be installed at a later date. In most areas Low voltage equipment is not regulated for use. So where is the risk. I would say the deep pockets of Panasonic are vulnerable if there is a problem.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Just curious - how does NC deal with general purpose motors?

imagesqtbnANd9GcT1d36pSGwI-SHsdKr8GNR4anSkhgOAuZ0kZ38QjkAJFBQdPI2Fnw.jpg


 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Just curious - how does NC deal with general purpose motors?
I have posed that same question to inspectors and never have received a real answer, I think they basically ignore the situation.

Roger
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Here we go again!

So what is the risk to the company?

The cameras could be installed at a later date. In most areas Low voltage equipment is not regulated for use. So where is the risk. I would say the deep pockets of Panasonic are vulnerable if there is a problem.

If an inspector is looking at these cameras there are obviously permits, inspections and licensing involved.

If you can't see the issue in trying to fool the inspector by hiding non-compliant equipment until after he leaves I certainly will not be able to explain it to you.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
If an inspector is looking at these cameras there are obviously permits, inspections and licensing involved.

If you can't see the issue in trying to fool the inspector by hiding non-compliant equipment until after he leaves I certainly will not be able to explain it to you.
And the permit would include the cameras anyways, so they would have to be in place before the final.

Roger
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
I have posed that same question to inspectors and never have received a real answer, I think they basically ignore the situation.

Roger
Just so I'm clear, I have so serious problem with the basic text of the rule; especially in light of the second paragraph where it actually speaks to the issue and provides a means of "...alternate evaluation..." I was just wondering if the State actually does it.

I also like that the basic responsibility is in the "Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance." Personally, I think most inspections should be the responsibility of insurance providers since they actually have "skin in the game."
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
And the permit would include the cameras anyways, so they would have to be in place before the final.

Roger

It depends a lot on how detailed the permit is. Some places it can be pretty general.

My inclination is toward learning to live within the requirements of the bureaucrats. they can and will make your life miserable if they think you are dissing them.

If the cameras have to be installed to get a final, then you have to deal with that problem.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Just so I'm clear, I have so serious problem with the basic text of the rule; especially in light of the second paragraph where it actually speaks to the issue and provides a means of "...alternate evaluation..." I was just wondering if the State actually does it.
NC is pretty thorough in enforcing their rules and I have been involved in some situations where a piece of medical equipment had to evaluated differently.


I also like that the basic responsibility is in the "Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance." Personally, I think most inspections should be the responsibility of insurance providers since they actually have "skin in the game."
In NC the "Office Of the State Fire Marshal" and the "Department of Insurance" are for all intent and purposes the AHJ.

Roger
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I don't know about the rest of th country . Here in Ca I have never heard of a issue of low voltage cameras and needing inspection. It may be a local issue but where I work the AH would have nothing to say.
The permit and inspection would be for the wiring only. My AHJ would look at this as a TV cable outlet or a Phone outlet and No inspection necessary.

folks from Ca please weigh in I would like to know how things are in your area.
 

marti smith

Senior Member
hand to God, that is the only reason we failed an inspection...because the POE cameras we used (Toshiba) were not UL. (The POE network switch IS UL). I've never even seen an UL poe IP camera before! Where is it listed in the NEC that something like a 12v dc IP camera needs a UL listing?

:rant:

UL is not the only NRTL; there are many: http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html (previously posted).

I would see if there is a match here, and if so, take it to your AHJ and have a chat.
 
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