Hope I'm Not Losing Another One

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satcom

Senior Member
My heart bleeds - but when we start making decisions based upon emotions, all is lost.

There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything that cannot be somehow made better. There are also the unintended consequences ... such as when we add a wheelchair ramp to help one, while creating a trip / fall hazard for the blind guy.

I'll bet that 1960 house had a phone jack. Amazing, isn't it ... no one needed a code to tell them that they wanted a phone jack. Ditto for storm windows and door locks.

Then again, kids rode bikes witout helmets, schools had marksmanship competitions, and cars lacked seat belts. It's rather amazing that anyone survived childhood at all!

These days, folks brag about living in 'gated communities,' where they are told what color to paint their house, what their yard must look like, and even what mailbox to hang. Maybe there are folks who feel a need to have their every action determined by a rulebook, but I'm not one of them.

The issue is not "what" is required, but rather one of "who" makes the decision. There are plenty of workers' paradises and religious theocracies where everything is determined by the AHJ ... but such is directly contrary to the model upon which we based our society. I am stumped by those whose ideal imitates less successful models ... it's rather like a baseball team aspiring for second place. (Then again, there are the Chicago Cubs!)


"The issue is not "what" is required, but rather one of "who" makes the decision"

There is no decision to be made! The Insurance Companies and their underwriting departments access the risk they take to insure your property, to pay out the replacement of your home or business, they are the ones that require codes and standards, not the government, the government agencies only operate to make sure their communities are rated with the best rating, by operating inspections, to insure their city and property owners can obtain insurance at affordable rates, can imagine what the rates would be, without codes and standards, the picture of the man on the pole trying to tap in the power line is not a joke, or a photo edit job, it is real world conditions in some countries, where there is no government, no codes, and no standards, and their living conditions are usually not the best, so I guess what my point is, if you want to live in a society with no rule or order, then best you move there to enjoy the horror of living there, when ever I come back home from a trip to the places without codes and order, I always have a warm feeling, about our standard and our why of living, even with all the laws and rules, bless to old us!
 
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cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
"The issue is not "what" is required, but rather one of "who" makes the decision"

There is no decision to be made! The Insurance Companies and their underwriting departments access the risk they take to insure your property, to pay out the replacement of your home or business, they are the ones that require codes and standards, not the government, the government agencies only operate to make sure their communities are rated with the best rating, by operating inspections, to insure their city and property owners can obtain insurance at affordable rates, can imagine what the rates would be, without codes and standards, the picture of the man on the pole trying to tap in the power line is not a joke, or a photo edit job, it is real world conditions in some countries, where there is no government, no codes, and no standards, and their living conditions are usually not the best, so I guess what my point is, if you want to live in a society with no rule or order, then best you move there to enjoy the horror of living there, when ever I come back home from a trip to the places without codes and order, I always have a warm feeling, about our standard and our why of living, even with all the laws and rules, bless to old us!

Sat, there are times I don't agree with things you say, but this time you and I are on the exact same page. :D
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I'll bet that 1960 house had a phone jack. Amazing, isn't it ... no one needed a code to tell them that they wanted a phone jack.

Nope, no jack, just a hard wired box that the phone company owned. Remember, in 1960 you did not own your own phone, you rented it and everything needed to use it from the phone company and they kept it all in good repair. A phone customer was not allowed to attempt to repair anything belonging to the phone company.
 

satcom

Senior Member
The OP is targeting the permit and inspection requirements, for the possible loss of a bid, when the real problem is, someone with a rental is trying to improve the property at the contractors expense, not his own money, which he has if he owns the property, unless he is like the millions that have property under water, they thought al you had to do is flip a home and bingo, you made a killing, since the banks got into trouble, many of these properties are also in trouble, it is not your bid that is the problem, you are loosing a job that most likely has no money to begin with, move on the jobs that have owners that are not underwater, and have properties that have asset value, and they can get improvement budget money, with their homes asset value.
 
I say that AFI breakers are very costly & have yet to be proven on safety. How many house fires have you seen that an AFI would have prevented? I say that smoke detectors are a great thing, I push them as hard as I can. But if a customer can only afford a certain amount of wiring, that little bit will get him safer than he is. Big Brother says that's not good enough. He has to get to level 10. Not good enough to go from a 2 to 5 or 5 to 7. If he can't pay for a level 10 job he stays at his current level.

There are 1,348,500 fires in the United States per year.
3000 of those result in death.
17,050 result in injuries.
That's a fire every 87 seconds!
$12.5 Billion in damages.

The state of Vemont has data collected since they began enforcing the AFCI requirement on 01 january 2002.
Their data reflects a 36% decrease in electrical fires.

Extrapolate that percentage into the afforementioned statistics and you don't have a fundamental basis for the argument that AFCI protection is too expensive.

Bear in mind that there is already a replacement device for AFCI's that will address some of the inadequacies of such.

Who knows when such a device will become code?

Alternatively, do the guy a favor and perform the job without a permit.

When the fire occurs, it'll be the contractor in court already at a disadvantage because they didn't pull a permit.

Won't take a sharp attorney to point that out.

Now realize that the above scenario can occur at any time in the near or far future and you could stand to lose everything you own because you did someone a favor.

I liked the suggestion about doing the work in stages.

Permits in New York are good for a year as long as you show progress.

And when it is about to expire, you can request an extension.

As long as you've shown progress, you will be granted such.

Also, why not install RF "wireless" smoke detectors?

If you purchase one AC unit and install it on an existing circuit, (usually in the basement where j-boxes are accessible.) you do not need to AFCI protect that circuit. (There may be some language regarding that in the 2011 code regarding the ionstallation of a device tripping the requirement for AFCI but NYS is still inspecting to 2008 code.)

The remaining smoke detectors can be battery operated.

Set the internal dip switches and they will communicate with one another.

The code states: "must be connected to premesis wiring and must be interconnected."

AC unit in basement satisifies "premesis wiring."

Battery units upon test will signal all other units so they are "interconnected."

I know there are those that will disagree that the above scenario satisfies the requirements, however; my jurisdiction accepts such.

The result is numerous more properties being protected by smoke detectors than previously because it is now more affordable.

And of one of those installations saves a life......'nuff said.
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Is that the general rule or does it just apply to certain things - like AFCI.

I find it very hard to believe you can go into a home built in 1930's and are allowed to install new wiring to 1930's standards. I will believe that you could maintain the existing 1930's wiring to its original standards. And that is just according to electrical codes. Other codes may make you replace items that are not up to some of more recent standards, like lampholders and fuseholders or safety switches with exposed live components.

The NJ Rehab Code is based on the 2005 NEC with alteraions while all new work is based on the 2008 NEC. Rehab affects a lot of requirements but new wiring would have to conform with the 2005 NEC. 2005 NEC article 212 was made voluntary by legislation in NJ for the 2005 NEC not the 2008. So an existing structure even with a new service would not need AFCI protection an addition with new circuits or a new home would.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
There are 1,348,500 fires in the United States per year.
3000 of those result in death.
17,050 result in injuries.
That's a fire every 87 seconds!
$12.5 Billion in damages.

The state of Vermont has data collected since they began enforcing the AFCI requirement on 01 january 2002.
Their data reflects a 36% decrease in electrical fires.

I think you have just put your finger on the solution to the crisis in the housing industry. Stop enforcing fire codes and there will be plenty of work for housing contractors!
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Sorry, K8 ... I was there. Phones in 1960 plugged into large 4-pin jacks.

"Cordless drills" were made by Stanley, and "cordless screwdrivers" said "Yankee." Larger holes were made with a brace & bit.

As for the "if you don't like it, move ..." cant .... well, this place was specifically set up on a 'limited government' model, in contrast to all the other places where the law was whatever the Kings and Bishops decided it was. I would say to those who espouse regulation that THEY are the interlopers, and should free to leave this great experiment in Freedom for the workers' paradise of their choice.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Then again, kids rode bikes witout helmets, schools had marksmanship competitions, and cars lacked seat belts. It's rather amazing that anyone survived childhood at all!

But many did needlessly die ......... but I guess that is just something we have to put up with so we don't have to these foolish things like helmets and seat belts. :roll:


 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Sorry, K8 ... I was there. Phones in 1960 plugged into large 4-pin jacks.

"Cordless drills" were made by Stanley, and "cordless screwdrivers" said "Yankee." Larger holes were made with a brace & bit.

As for the "if you don't like it, move ..." cant .... well, this place was specifically set up on a 'limited government' model, in contrast to all the other places where the law was whatever the Kings and Bishops decided it was. I would say to those who espouse regulation that THEY are the interlopers, and should free to leave this great experiment in Freedom for the workers' paradise of their choice.
So what do you do about those who use lack of regulation as license to pillage the rest of us who want to play nice? In an unregulated society, when you decide to be a nice guy you immediately put yourself at the mercy of those who have not made that decision.

Unmoderated capitalism and unfettered socialism gets us to the same place - a few folks with all the marbles and the rest of us scrabbling for the leftovers. It's not that regulation is in and of itself a bad thing; too much and too little are equally bad.

And not all phones plugged into those four pin jacks; a lot of them were hard wired. I was there, too.
 
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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I'll just add that if we lived in a world where everyone considered the ramifications of what they do and were not willing to bring the house down around our ears in order to gain economic and political advantage over their peers, we wouldn't need regulation.

The motto of our country is "E pluribus unum" which roughly translates to "we are all in this together".

Yeah, right.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
An inspector friend reminded me that I could save a little on this by using battery powered smoke detectors. Only have to use wired/interconnected if opening up walls & ceilings. I had forgotten that detail. I called customer & offered some $ off for that & some off if he helped with the work. He said he would think it over. I'm sure he's getting other quotes & will find someone who will cut corners & do it still cheaper.
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
You are wasting too much time with this bid. The customer doesn't want it done right, or doesn't want to pay for it to be done right. In the end, they will find something to complain about and not pay the full amount anyway.

An inspector friend reminded me that I could save a little on this by using battery powered smoke detectors. Only have to use wired/interconnected if opening up walls & ceilings. I had forgotten that detail. I called customer & offered some $ off for that & some off if he helped with the work. He said he would think it over. I'm sure he's getting other quotes & will find someone who will cut corners & do it still cheaper.
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
You are wasting too much time with this bid. The customer doesn't want it done right, or doesn't want to pay for it to be done right. In the end, they will find something to complain about and not pay the full amount anyway.

I would not worry at all about it, but this is all too common. I used to quote jobs for 2 previous employers & we would get at least 5 out of 10, often more. I do well now to get 3 or 4 out of 10, giving every break I can give. Money is tighter than ever before & jobs uncertain. I know I'm reasonably good at pricing small jobs, as we got a lot of them & usually made some profit on them. I price the same way I used to for others.
 

thomas Dundon

Member
Location
va
That was the part of doing service work i didnt like.You do a job and they had a idea how much it was going to cost .Hand them the bill was told thats to much or what took so long .some people are looking for some thing for nothing. They end up calling the shop and complaining they would take a few dollars off and every thing was fine..
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
That was the part of doing service work i didnt like.You do a job and they had a idea how much it was going to cost .Hand them the bill was told thats to much or what took so long .some people are looking for some thing for nothing. They end up calling the shop and complaining they would take a few dollars off and every thing was fine..

this isn't a problem when you flat rate price them.

NOBODY likes time and material.

nobody.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
this isn't a problem when you flat rate price them.

NOBODY likes time and material.

nobody.

That keeps them from being suprised at the bill after work is done. Some will still think you are ripping them off when you give them a price before work is done.

There are also many people that just complain no matter what, some hoping you will make a lower offer, but will pay you either way.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
That keeps them from being suprised at the bill after work is done.
Some will still think you are ripping them off when you give them a price before work is done.

and they can call someone else.
i explain that i bring over 30 years experience to what i do,
and i treat their facility or home like it is my own.

there are people for whom that is not important, and for them,
we have craigslist.

i have a customer, who i gave a price to for mounting a very expensive
light fixture on the side of a building, who wanted to know if they could
source the light fixture themselves to save money.

i said, of course, and took the light fixture cost off the bid. the damn
thing was so expensive that i had no markup on it anyway... and now
i don't have any issues with "the powder coat doesn't EXACTLY match
the other lights" drama.

gave them the name of my inside salesman, so they could go to my
wholesale house and everything.

turns out, the price to them is going to be about $600 more for the
fixture than i was going to charge.

i'd of eaten it, if they didn't throw themselves on the grenade for me.

i have good customers. they save me from the consequences of my
actions.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
and they can call someone else.
i explain that i bring over 30 years experience to what i do,
and i treat their facility or home like it is my own.

there are people for whom that is not important, and for them,
we have craigslist.

i have a customer, who i gave a price to for mounting a very expensive
light fixture on the side of a building, who wanted to know if they could
source the light fixture themselves to save money.

i said, of course, and took the light fixture cost off the bid. the damn
thing was so expensive that i had no markup on it anyway... and now
i don't have any issues with "the powder coat doesn't EXACTLY match
the other lights" drama.

gave them the name of my inside salesman, so they could go to my
wholesale house and everything.

turns out, the price to them is going to be about $600 more for the
fixture than i was going to charge.

i'd of eaten it, if they didn't throw themselves on the grenade for me.

i have good customers. they save me from the consequences of my
actions.

Yea man, I've had it with that scenario too. Some people will spend a fortune on "stuff" & want it installed for $19. They could buy something cheaper, pay me & still have $ left over. Once had a couple hire us to install a new Jenn Air range, replacing an old one. New ones are totally different, they knew this. Called my attn to it. Husband said go ahead with it. Wife came home later & started that "don't know if I can afford it, yap yap yap. " I reminded her the husband cleared the work & that they knew it was a lot of work to cut counters, move electrical, move vents, patch old holes, etc. She kept snivelling. I told her (politely) that she could still trade it for a cheaper stove that simply plugs into the wall. That shut her up.
 
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