water pipe cut off

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iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
No Bob just the ones that are present at the building that have 10 or more feet in contact with earth. It does not say metal water pipes that enter the building but it does say those that are present at the building.

We disagree on what present at the building means. As Don asked, how many feet away does it have to be before it is not present?

You can say that it is ridiculous all your heart desires but it says what it says.

I will, it does and I mentioned that most inspectors will know it does not mean what you think it means.

One more thing to keep in mind is, just because an inspector passes something in no way means that it is code compliant.

One more thing to keep in mind is, just because you say it does not make it so.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
If water is not in the pipe is it a water pipe? Water service coming in from other location, non metalic?
Then the "old" copper is just pipe in the ground.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Mike,
The issue is what is the definition of "present at the building or structure". My definition is that it has to be a part of the structure, as in the concrete encased electrode, or enter the building in the case of the metal underground water pipe. Your difinition is different, so my question is, what is your defintion?

As I have said before should a metal water pipe with 10 feet in contact with earth and 10 feet out supply a building that is transitioned to a nonmetallic water pipe before entering the building then that metal water pipe is present at the building and shall be used as part of the grounding electrode system.

We disagree on what present at the building means. As Don asked, how many feet away does it have to be before it is not present?
explained above



I will, it does and I mentioned that most inspectors will know it does not mean what you think it means.
Did you mean to say most inspectors will think or did you mean to say know? Just for the record this is not only my opinion but the opinion of those with whom I work.



One more thing to keep in mind is, just because you say it does not make it so.
Ditto, just because you have an opposing opinion does not mean you are right either. I make my statement based on what is written in 250. You are making your statement on what you think it is implying.

If water is not in the pipe is it a water pipe? Water service coming in from other location, non metalic?,Then the "old" copper is just pipe in the ground.
And fall under 250.52(A)(8)
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
So If the water line is metal for 20 feet onto my property and the next 40 feet is plastic into the house then you are saying I will need to dig up the yard and connect to that 20' section. Now how does one prove it. I am not going to dig up the yard to prove to the inspector that there is or isn't 10 feet in the ground.

Let's say I have a barn on my property100 yards from my house and the water line is metal to the barn. Do I now have to use that electrode at the house? The fact that the water lines is present on the property is not the sme as being present at the house. I think I agree with the others on this one Mike.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
As I have said before should a metal water pipe with 10 feet in contact with earth and 10 feet out supply a building that is transitioned to a nonmetallic water pipe before entering the building then that metal water pipe is present at the building and shall be used as part of the grounding electrode system.

explained above

No Mike you have not explained it at all.:happyno:

HOW MANY FEET AWAY DOES THE METAL PIPE HAVE TO BE BEFORE IT IS NO LONGER PRESENT AT THE BUILDING?

If you can't answer this question directly and concisely I would say your argument falls apart.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
No Mike you have not explained it at all.
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HOW MANY FEET AWAY DOES THE METAL PIPE HAVE TO BE BEFORE IT IS NO LONGER PRESENT AT THE BUILDING? If you can't answer this question directly and concisely I would say your argument falls apart.
First off I could care less what you would say. Second as I have said before it is not my argument but what has been taught me. Yes I did explain so the question now becomes did you read the post?
As I have said before should a metal water pipe with 10 feet in contact with earth and 10 feet out supply a building that is transitioned to a nonmetallic water pipe before entering the building then that metal water pipe is present at the building and shall be used as part of the grounding electrode system.

So If the water line is metal for 20 feet onto my property and the next 40 feet is plastic into the house then you are saying I will need to dig up the yard and connect to that 20' section. Now how does one prove it. I am not going to dig up the yard to prove to the inspector that there is or isn't 10 feet in the ground.
It is not a question of what you have to prove but a question of what constitutes an electrode. If this pipe is supplying water to the building then it would be required by 250.52(A)(1) to be used as an electrode. I am not saying that you have to do any digging at all to prove anything to anyone I am only saying what is written in Article 250.

Let's say I have a barn on my property100 yards from my house and the water line is metal to the barn. Do I now have to use that electrode at the house? The fact that the water lines is present on the property is not the sme as being present at the house. I think I agree with the others on this one Mike.
I would say that in this case the metal water pipe was present at the barn as it is supplying the barn and would be required to be used as an electrode should there be feeders to the barn.

There has been a misconception for years that the first five feet of metal water pipe that enters a building is part of the electrode. In the 2011 cycle in 250.68(C) has cleared up this misconception. Below is the commentary from NECPLUS;

The requirement in 250.68(C)(1) limits grounding and bonding connections to occurring only within the first 5 ft of where the piping enters a building or structure because of concerns that the use of nonmetallic piping or fittings could interrupt the electrical continuity of the metal water piping.
The piping at this point is not a grounding electrode [only the underground portion is an electrode per 250.52(A)(1)]. Rather, it is used to extend grounding and bonding conductor connections to the grounding electrode. The exception permits connections to occur beyond the first 5 ft and at that point the water piping is considered as a conductor used for bonding grounding electrodes together or as the actual grounding electrode conductor. All of the conditions of the exception, including the use of qualified persons to service the water piping system, must be met in order to extend the permitted point of connection beyond the first 5 ft of where the piping enters the building.


Nowhere in 250.52(A)(1) does it give a distance from the building so I would suppose that if it is supplying the building it is present at the building.

Each and every one of you please feel free to disagree with me but no one will change my mind.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
This definition of ?present at? requiring a distance, would it also apply to all the grounding electrodes outlined in 250.52?

How far away would a ground ring have to be before it was no longer present at?
How far away would a ground rod have to be before it was no longer present at?

In this rocky soil around my area I have had to go as far as 10 plus feet before being able to drive an 8 foot rod. Was it still present at?

I remember a few years ago installing a ground ring that was more than 10 feet from the building, was it still present at?

250.50 states that all the electrodes present at the building are required to be bonded together to form the electrode system. I suppose the two above were not to be used because they were not present at. What about these, are they present at or not?
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I would say that in this case the metal water pipe was present at the barn as it is supplying the barn and would be required to be used as an electrode should there be feeders to the barn.
.

Now I have no desire to change your mind but there is inconsistency in your statement. You were first stating that any metal water pipe on the property must be used but now you are saying that the metal pipe is not serving the house so it does not need to be used. 250.50 is clear that the electrode must be present at the building served. In the case you mentioned, the water pipe in the ground is not present at the building but present on the property.
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
[And fall under 250.52(A)(8)[/QUOTE]

250.50 All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (7) that are present at each building or structure shall be bonded together...

If it falls under 250.52(A)(8) it is not required to bond with the electrode system.
 
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don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
...How far away would a ground ring have to be before it was no longer present at?
How far away would a ground rod have to be before it was no longer present at?
Those electrodes are never present at a building...they are installed by the electrical contactor.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
As I have said before should a metal water pipe with 10 feet in contact with earth and 10 feet out supply a building that is transitioned to a nonmetallic water pipe before entering the building then that metal water pipe is present at the building and shall be used as part of the grounding electrode system.
...
I have no idea what this statement means. If you are saying that metal water pipe changes to non-metallic pipe 10' away from the building is "present at the building", I do not agree. There are legitimate safety concerns on the part of water utilities that may lead them to stop the metal piping outside of the building so it is not "present at the building" to be used as a grounding electrode.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
...
You can say that it is ridiculous all your heart desires but it says what it says. ...
Yes it does say what it says, but there is nothing to even suggest that a metal water pipe that stops short of the building is "present at the building".
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
... Ditto, just because you have an opposing opinion does not mean you are right either. I make my statement based on what is written in 250. You are making your statement on what you think it is implying. ...
My statements are based on the wording of the NEC. All of are "implying" as to the meaning of those words. Can you cite a published document that says a water pipe that stops short of the building is "present at the building".
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
Nowhere in 250.52(A)(1) does it give a distance from the building so I would suppose that if it is supplying the building it is present at the building.

Each and every one of you please feel free to disagree with me but no one will change my mind.

OK I won't try to change your mind. :happyno:

But, based on the bold, if the pipe in the street is metal and everything else supplying the building is plastic does the part in the street become an electrode?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
OK I won't try to change your mind. :happyno:

But, based on the bold, if the pipe in the street is metal and everything else supplying the building is plastic does the part in the street become an electrode?

Just as much as the transmission lines does. They are both part of the utility but you already knew this
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
First off I could care less what you would say. Second as I have said before it is not my argument but what has been taught me. Yes I did explain so the question now becomes did you read the post?

Mike, you still have not answered a simple question. at what distance is the pipe no longer present?

Each and every one of you please feel free to disagree with me but no one will change my mind.

OK, how about this?

Can you show me or even tell me about an instance where the code was actually enforced as you feel it should be?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I have no idea what this statement means. If you are saying that metal water pipe changes to non-metallic pipe 10' away from the building is "present at the building", I do not agree. There are legitimate safety concerns on the part of water utilities that may lead them to stop the metal piping outside of the building so it is not "present at the building" to be used as a grounding electrode.
Again you are talking about the utility side of the water system
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Just as much as the transmission lines does. They are both part of the utility but you already knew this

So does the HO have to trench out to the street and run an GEC to the metal water line in the street that eventually supplies the home?


This is just silly at this point.
 
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