Arc flash lawsuit

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zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
This one is interesting, obviously this guy was not wearing PPE or following ESWP's per 70E requirements, yet he is suing the company where he was working. This is exactly why contractors are being required more and more to provide proof of 70E compliance before being allowed to do work at facilities.

http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/241988-burned-electrician-sues-over-exploding-electrical-box

I wish him a speedy recovery, shame this sort of thing happens when it can be prevented so easily.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
What PPE to wear?

What PPE to wear?

Where does the average layman, or worker find a concise, easy to understand, summary of the PPE requirements for the electrical construction industry? Specifically, what is required for preliminary voltage tests, testing or troubleshooting live, low voltage (120-480V) circuits, etc. The Govt. is great at writing broad sweeping, vague, regulations with no substance. For example, I need to pull a hot receptacle out of the wall to check the connections? Or I am opening j boxes to find a short? Or, we are doing demolition and we are removing dead circuits from a junction box with adjacent live circuits? I have been in the trade too long, and I am used to doing things that I suspect are not acceptable today. So, for example, would it be acceptable for a service electrician to be provided nomex shirt and pants, and require a face shield and 500volt gloves for typical home troubleshooting?


Moderator, feel free to move this to a new thread if you find that appropriate.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Where does the average layman, or worker find a concise, easy to understand, summary of the PPE requirements for the electrical construction industry?

Um, the NFPA 70E. Your employer is required to provide you with training and the PPE required for doing your job. Your training should be specific for the type of work you perform, which is why generic 70E courses are a waste of time for many poeple.

Have you read the FAQ's in this section? That will get you started.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Where does the average layman, or worker find a concise, easy to understand, summary of the PPE requirements for the electrical construction industry?

Like Zog said NFPA70E.

But they are relatively simple. The PPE section of NFPA70E is not much more than 20 pages.

But they boil down to:
Don't work on energized circuits.
If you do not know how to make sure the circuit is not energized, you are not qualified to work on it.

If the circuit must be energized (i.e. taking voltage measurements) wear appropriate shock and arc flash PPE.
If you do not how to determine the appropriate PPE for the task, then you are not qualified to perform it.

Training - Training - Training.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Like Zog said NFPA70E.

But they are relatively simple. The PPE section of NFPA70E is not much more than 20 pages.

But they boil down to:
Don't work on energized circuits.
If you do not know how to make sure the circuit is not energized, you are not qualified to work on it.

If the circuit must be energized (i.e. taking voltage measurements) wear appropriate shock and arc flash PPE.
If you do not how to determine the appropriate PPE for the task, then you are not qualified to perform it.

Training - Training - Training.

OK, I am going to stick my neck out so that the nasty people here can chop it off. First, I am not some fly by night flunky! There are thousands of small electrical shops around this country that haven't spent the time to find out all of the requirements of every safety regulation that OSHA has thrown out there. I have worked for 4 Electrical contractors in the last 20 years, and I have not yet seen someone suit up to do an voltage test on a 120 volt circuit. I have done voltage tests and only once had a short from it that created a spark, but not enough to hurt me or anyone else. I remember guys that tested for voltage using the back of their hand (so that if they clenched thye would not grab hold) I have seen old timers use a screw driver to short out a circuit rather than trace out the circuit, without ever observing an injury from it.

I have always been cautious myself, and I am trying to extend that caution to a new era that includes PPE. To say that I am not qualified to perform voltage test, because I don't know how to determine the PPE is probably marginally correct, but I must say that if that is true then 90% of the construction electricians in my area are in the same situation. I want to correct that. I don't want to spend my money, because I am just an estimator/project manager, and have no monetary interest in the Company I work for. I don't do voltage tests for my employer any more. However, without an understanding of what is really required, as opposed to calling in the bomb squad to do a simple voltage test, I can't really try to help my company become a safer place.

So I appeal to you to send me in the right direction, not shoot me.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
...and I have not yet seen someone suit up to do an voltage test on a 120 volt circuit....
It is extremely unlikely, if not improbable that a person would need to 'suit up' for a 120V single phase circuit.
Untrained people have no idea how little PPE is required to protect them.

I did not try to shoot you, Zog and I both gave the answer: Training on the tasks you are performing.

Have you checked with your local electrical distributor to see if they offer any 'lunch & learn' sessions on PPE products?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
So I appeal to you to send me in the right direction, not shoot me.

We are, get training. In your ealier post you grouped 120V and 480V systems together, while voltage is not a direct factor in determining the hazard level there is usually a huge difference between the hazard level of a 120V residential system (Very small, little arcs like you mentioned) and a 480V commercial system. In fact 480V systems typically have much larger arc flash hazards than 15,000V systems do.

Bottom line, your employer is required to provide training, and shops that do not have it and can prove they are 70E compliant will (And already are) be disqualified from even bidding on jobs because of liability concerns like in the article I posted (Which was sort of my point)
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
If you think 'the problem' has anything at all to do with safety procedures or equipment, you're confused.

I ordinarily wouldn't mind someone being confused, except that this is an example of where such confused thinking always leads to the exact opposite of the desired result. That is, it will lead to more injuries, not less.

Let's use, for an analogy, a footrace. A woman runs a marathon, finishes in record time, well ahead of any others. Yet, she is not awarded any of the prizes. Slower runners are given the awards, simply because race officials had separated the 'pro' runners from the 'amateurs,' givint the 'pros' a different starting time. Race officials simple assumed the race would be won by the 'pros,' and didn't even look at the 'amateur' times - even though this amateur finished an hour ahead of the pros. Same course, same rules, for all ...... though the fastest runner was a bit upset to find that, in this example, the race did not go to the fastest runner. In effect, the 'rules' were changed at awards time.

How is that relevant here?

It's relevant here simply because we've let the system ignore the ground rules, and start making things up as they go along.

Precept #1: Who's the boss? In this example, the guy worked for a contractor. You might want to say 'sure, but he's on company property, so the company can set the rules.' Sure ... let's do that, and let every broom-pusher at the company take it upon themselves to assert company rules on outside contractors. Where's the chain of responsibility? I hate to say it, but .... if you're going to treat the guy like an employee, don't cry when the guy asserts employee rights. Today it's "liability," tomorrow it's everything else, from vacation time to health care and retirement.

Precept #2: It's a clever way to dodge liability if we hire a contractor. Sure, let's avoid all that payroll / benefit / unemployment insurance / workmans' comp / immigration law / tax witholding / training stuff by hiring our guys through contractors. Their guys don't get to expect a regular work schedule, paid holidays, etc. I can fob off on the contractor the cost of tools and materials. Let's back up a moment here: you're trying to finesse the system, and now complain when the system won't go along?

Precept #3: Anyone can sue for anything, any time. Sure they can. The courts, though, are supposedly kept in check by precedent, tradition, and law. The argument made here by the injured man is contrary to the assumptions that form the basis of workmans' comp laws. Unless, of course, the 'contractor' relationship is fictitious, designed to get around the rules. If that's the case, the employer can find sympathy in his dictionary, but not from me. How else can a 'workmans' comp' issue enter the courts, as the very purpose of workmans' comp is to limit an employers' liability.

Precept #4: Government is the solution to everything. 70E? OSHA? "National" codes? What happened to 'separation of powers,' where issues like those in this case were seen as matters for state and local government? Looks to me as if the very creation of a national authority -OSHA- undermined the existing system of accountability. Likewise, the Courts themselves have created this anarchy by inserting themselves into matters as mundane as school bus routes.

Precept #5: I, as a customer, can dictate just who else the contractor does work for. Indeed, if I find you're doing work for my competitor, or can't jigger your schedule to suit my every whim, I just won't hire you any more. Sure I can. I might even get angry and point out to him that 'you work for me.' No wonder he expects me to deliver employee benefits.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
We are, get training. In your ealier post you grouped 120V and 480V systems together, while voltage is not a direct factor in determining the hazard level there is usually a huge difference between the hazard level of a 120V residential system (Very small, little arcs like you mentioned) and a 480V commercial system. In fact 480V systems typically have much larger arc flash hazards than 15,000V systems do.

Bottom line, your employer is required to provide training, and shops that do not have it and can prove they are 70E compliant will (And already are) be disqualified from even bidding on jobs because of liability concerns like in the article I posted (Which was sort of my point)

FYI, I understand your assesment of me clumping 120-480 together, but the reason I did was to distinguish that I was not referring to the medium to high voltage side of our industry. I understand arc flash potential to some extent, and when you get right down to it, the arc flash potential of a screwdriver in a 400A residential panel is much higher than a screwdriver in shorting out an 18 guage 480 volt fixture wire also.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
It is extremely unlikely, if not improbable that a person would need to 'suit up' for a 120V single phase circuit.
Untrained people have no idea how little PPE is required to protect them.

I did not try to shoot you, Zog and I both gave the answer: Training on the tasks you are performing.

Have you checked with your local electrical distributor to see if they offer any 'lunch & learn' sessions on PPE products?

I don't want to compromise my employer or the other employers in this my area, so from here on out I will speak of generalizatitons and supposition of the way things might be in smaller areas across the country.

I would be surprised to learn that most Electrical Contractors, first provide their employers with adequate training, and even more important, actually expect 100% compliance in the field. Similar to "Don't stand on the top rung of that ladder." (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) I have done some searching on the internet, and almost every site I see, along with most recent articles in ECM and Electrical Contractor, show someone in a flash suit every time they show a voltage check. I would like to understand the potentials enough to recommend precise, easy to understand guidelines to my employer for his service electricians.

I have seen several 'lunch and learn' presentations, and they invariably deal with high energy situations. The original article looked to me like the guy was preparing to do voltage tests in a low energy junction box. Since there was no mention of leaving exposed electricity unattended and he was coming back to the area when the explosion occurred I assume that the "box" did not have exposed electrical parts. Just like, more people die from exposure to the neutral on a 120V system that they do from 5KV power, I am more concerned with every day operations than those situations that I consider obviously hazardous.

One more thing. Things have changed so much regarding these issues, and rather quickly. It is really hard for me to feel the need to suit up just to take off the dead front of a 208 volt ( or even a 480v) panelboard, even though I know we have gotten there. I also know I am not the only "old-timer" who feels this way. If we don't recognize these attitudes we can't adjust them.

I was working for a guy a while back. Company policy, suit up before removing a dead front. The owner was with me. I was putting the suit on. When I turned around he had already removed the dead front and done the voltage test we needed to perform. He kinda thought it was funny. I understand his position, while at the same time recognize the problems, both physical and attitude wise, this can cause. Am I really the only person in this country that has experienced this?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
FYI, I understand your assesment of me clumping 120-480 together, but the reason I did was to distinguish that I was not referring to the medium to high voltage side of our industry. I understand arc flash potential to some extent, and when you get right down to it, the arc flash potential of a screwdriver in a 400A residential panel is much higher than a screwdriver in shorting out an 18 guage 480 volt fixture wire also.

No it is not, well maybe not. The arc flash potential depends on the available fault current and time it takes for the OCPD to clear the fault. Your statement is exactly why people need the proper training to unserstand what the hazards are and how to protect themselves.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Strathead said:
It is really hard for me to feel the need to suit up just to take off the dead front of a 208 volt ( or even a 480v) panelboard, even though I know we have gotten there.

I taught a 70E course for a company just the other day where an employee just removed a dead front off of a 480/277 volt panelboard. There was an arc flash event that sent the electrician to the emergency room with severe 2nd degree burns on his arms, face & neck. Someone had left some branch circuit conductors coiled up in the panel and when the electrician removed the dead front the EGC of the circuit shifted and shorted out across the busing. Had the electrician been wearing the proper PPE he most likely would not have suffered the injuries that he did.

The owners of the company realized fast that not complying with 70E could be a very costly situation both from fines and litigation as well as lost contracts. A lot of large employers and businesses are now requiring that outside contractors have 70E training before they allow them to work at their facilities.

Chris
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I don't want to compromise my employer or the other employers in this my area, so from here on out I will speak of generalizatitons and supposition of the way things might be in smaller areas across the country.

I would be surprised to learn that most Electrical Contractors, first provide their employers with adequate training, and even more important, actually expect 100% compliance in the field. Similar to "Don't stand on the top rung of that ladder." (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) I have done some searching on the internet, and almost every site I see, along with most recent articles in ECM and Electrical Contractor, show someone in a flash suit every time they show a voltage check. I would like to understand the potentials enough to recommend precise, easy to understand guidelines to my employer for his service electricians.

I have seen several 'lunch and learn' presentations, and they invariably deal with high energy situations. The original article looked to me like the guy was preparing to do voltage tests in a low energy junction box. Since there was no mention of leaving exposed electricity unattended and he was coming back to the area when the explosion occurred I assume that the "box" did not have exposed electrical parts. Just like, more people die from exposure to the neutral on a 120V system that they do from 5KV power, I am more concerned with every day operations than those situations that I consider obviously hazardous.

One more thing. Things have changed so much regarding these issues, and rather quickly. It is really hard for me to feel the need to suit up just to take off the dead front of a 208 volt ( or even a 480v) panelboard, even though I know we have gotten there. I also know I am not the only "old-timer" who feels this way. If we don't recognize these attitudes we can't adjust them.

I was working for a guy a while back. Company policy, suit up before removing a dead front. The owner was with me. I was putting the suit on. When I turned around he had already removed the dead front and done the voltage test we needed to perform. He kinda thought it was funny. I understand his position, while at the same time recognize the problems, both physical and attitude wise, this can cause. Am I really the only person in this country that has experienced this?

You raise some points that I also have tried to raise in the past. It's not that I'm against 70E, but it is clearly not part of the culture of the vast majority of contractors out there that do residential and even pretty sizable commercial work. My sense is folks like Jim and Zog work work in heavy industry where this is part of the culture, which is good. Comments like Jim's to go to a distributors lunch/show and tell on PPE are great in his culture,
but I can assure you that most of my local distrbutors (yes, big national guys) wouldn't even have a pair of 1000 volt gloves in stock. I have also stated there is real lack of training in arc flash and incident energy to the vast majority of otherwise "trained/licensed" electricians. We have a long way to go on this, but I don't see it happening.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
You raise some points that I also have tried to raise in the past. It's not that I'm against 70E, but it is clearly not part of the culture of the vast majority of contractors out there that do residential and even pretty sizable commercial work. My sense is folks like Jim and Zog work work in heavy industry where this is part of the culture, which is good. Comments like Jim's to go to a distributors lunch/show and tell on PPE are great in his culture,
but I can assure you that most of my local distrbutors (yes, big national guys) wouldn't even have a pair of 1000 volt gloves in stock. I have also stated there is real lack of training in arc flash and incident energy to the vast majority of otherwise "trained/licensed" electricians. We have a long way to go on this, but I don't see it happening.

I agree that we need to change the culture of a lot of electrical contractors. This is changing and is coming down from larger shops and businesses, but it is showing up in smaller local shops.

I have taught many 70E classes for smaller local businesses and contractors and my local supply houses are getting on board with stocking arc flash and electrical shock PPE.

Changing the culture is a process and as with all processes it has to start somewhere.

As I teach these 70E classes I am amazed to see how many people truly don't understand the hazards that they are exposed to everyday with such activities as testing for voltage.

Chris
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I'd be willing to bet in the long run that you will see several kinds of electricians.

The first group will be construction electricians. No need there to have much training or PPE equipment as they will never work on anything live. Pipe and wire guys.

The other group will be guys with training so they can work on live circuits. They will go in and test circuits to make sure they are not live before the non-trained guys go to work and do all the troubleshooting.

It will just end up being too expensive to train and equip all electricians to these standards, and probably not that great of an idea anyway. Guys not used to working in the heavy PPE are probably a hazard to themselves anyway.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
No it is not, well maybe not. The arc flash potential depends on the available fault current and time it takes for the OCPD to clear the fault. Your statement is exactly why people need the proper training to unserstand what the hazards are and how to protect themselves.

Without trying to be snide, your comment very much proves my point and disputes your original one. I understand the concepts of electricity, arc flash, energy potential, selective tripping, long time, short time and instantaneous trip functions of circuit breakers, ohms laws, Kirchoff's laws, etc. Much better than most of the guys I know, who are in the field. If we can not offer clear guidelines of when to, and when not to, wear various levels of PPE then I believe the default for many of them will be to just ignore it. (a problem just waiting to happen. I also disagree with you regarding the likelyhood at least of a larger flash from the above 480volt example than the other. Since the energy transfered is inversely proportional to the resistance, the resistance is directly proportional to the area of contact and there is a FAR greater likely area of contact in the 400A panel. However, possibly just for the sake of argument, you pointed out that it may not be true. Exactly the type of comment that would make electricians less secure in their knowledge to just throw up their hands. I want to prevent this fatalism in the Company I work for.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I taught a 70E course for a company just the other day where an employee just removed a dead front off of a 480/277 volt panelboard. There was an arc flash event that sent the electrician to the emergency room with severe 2nd degree burns on his arms, face & neck. Someone had left some branch circuit conductors coiled up in the panel and when the electrician removed the dead front the EGC of the circuit shifted and shorted out across the busing. Had the electrician been wearing the proper PPE he most likely would not have suffered the injuries that he did.

The owners of the company realized fast that not complying with 70E could be a very costly situation both from fines and litigation as well as lost contracts. A lot of large employers and businesses are now requiring that outside contractors have 70E training before they allow them to work at their facilities.

Chris
I agree! I would not have continued to comment if I didn't. If you are always fully aware of every potential danger surrounding you and NEVER do anything that has any potential of harming you or others, then have a good life in your cocoon. :) (intended to be light sarcasm)

I generally know when I am doing something stupid, such as not whering the proper safety gear. I am still guilty of it at times though.
 
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