another handle tie ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hendrix

Senior Member
Location
New England
Often times, in new resi. construction, the ec will run the 20a conductors for a bathroom to the same two or three gang box as the 15a conducors for the luminaries. Does anyone think that this requires a handle tie on the 20a and 15a breakers? Also, would it be code compliant to have a receptacle on a 15a circuit and have a 20a circuit junctioned in the same box, as long as the cu. in. requirements are met?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Often times, in new resi. construction, the ec will run the 20a conductors for a bathroom to the same two or three gang box as the 15a conducors for the luminaries. Does anyone think that this requires a handle tie on the 20a and 15a breakers? Also, would it be code compliant to have a receptacle on a 15a circuit and have a 20a circuit junctioned in the same box, as long as the cu. in. requirements are met?

Handle tie is only required if both circuits are connected to the same device/yoke, an example would be a stack switch with more than one switch on same mounting yoke, and both circuits were conected to it. Otherwise you can have as many circuits that you want in the box without otherwise overfilling it.

A 100 gang box could have 100 circuits with no use of handle ties if there are no MWBC's involved. If MWBC's are involved then handle ties are needed because of common neutrals, not because of adjacent switches.
 

Strife

Senior Member
Sorry to be a little blunt here (I don't mean any offense), but obviously you have absolutely NO idea why handle ties are required, and WHERE.
Primary reason for handle ties (on 120V circuits) is for the MWBC which share the neutral. If circuit 1 and 3 share the same neutral and I work on circuit one, if I disconnect the neutral, circuit #3 will be capable of sending a backfeed through the neutral.
Second reason (which I like it better than the first) is that it'll require the circuits to be adjacent. I've seen (literally) hundreds (if not thousands) of panels where #1 and #3 ended on the same phase eventually, hence overloading the neutral.

As far as the second part? A junction box is a junction box, whether is 4x4 or 24x24 it's still a junction box. Not even gonna elaborate on this.

Often times, in new resi. construction, the ec will run the 20a conductors for a bathroom to the same two or three gang box as the 15a conducors for the luminaries. Does anyone think that this requires a handle tie on the 20a and 15a breakers? Also, would it be code compliant to have a receptacle on a 15a circuit and have a 20a circuit junctioned in the same box, as long as the cu. in. requirements are met?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Sorry to be a little blunt here (I don't mean any offense), but obviously you have absolutely NO idea why handle ties are required, and WHERE.
Primary reason for handle ties (on 120V circuits) is for the MWBC which share the neutral. If circuit 1 and 3 share the same neutral and I work on circuit one, if I disconnect the neutral, circuit #3 will be capable of sending a backfeed through the neutral.

Sorry to be a little blunt here (I don't mean any offense), but obviously you have absolutely NO idea why handle ties are required, and WHERE.


Yes, they are required for MWBCs now.

They are also required for two wire circuits in some conditions which means there is more to it than than a shared neutral

210.7 Multiple Branch Circuits. Where two or more
branch circuits supply devices or equipment on the same
yoke, a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded
conductors supplying those devices shall be provided
at the point at which the branch circuits originate.
 

Strife

Senior Member
"Primary reason for handle ties (on 120V circuits) is for the MWBC which share the neutral."

And that's exactly the reason I included that little parenthesis (ON 120V CIRCUITS). Now can you be so kind and explain to me how to install a handle tie on a 2 wire 120V circuit?
The 2 wires 240V(480 also) circuits have always been required to simultaneously trip both phases (or almost always, least since 1990 or so), so I didn't think I'd have to write a 1000 page dissertation on that subject.

Sorry to be a little blunt here (I don't mean any offense), but obviously you have absolutely NO idea why handle ties are required, and WHERE.



Yes, they are required for MWBCs now.

They are also required for two wire circuits in some conditions which means there is more to it than than a shared neutral
 
Last edited:

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
"2 or more", as in three for 3phase.

to op, if you are thinking about that recep on the 15A ckt to be in the same bathroom the 20A ckt is feeding, (or any other bathroom for that matter), then no! there are a couple of different ways to wire a bathroom, and putting a recep on the 15A ckt aint one of them.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
"Primary reason for handle ties (on 120V circuits) is for the MWBC which share the neutral."

And that's exactly the reason I included that little parenthesis (ON 120V CIRCUITS). Now can you be so kind and explain to me how to install a handle tie on a 2 wire 120V circuit?
The 2 wires 240V(480 also) circuits have always been required to simultaneously trip both phases (or almost always, least since 1990 or so), so I didn't think I'd have to write a 1000 page dissertation on that subject.

If you take a duplex receptacle, break the tabs off to separate the top receptacle from the bottom then run 2 circuits 4 wires to it from the same phase you will need handle ties according to 210.7 as iwire quoted. there is no shared neutral here.

Same would also apply to a combination switch that has more than 1 circuit connected to it, whether it is a MWBC or not.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
And that's exactly the reason I included that little parenthesis (ON 120V CIRCUITS). Now can you be so kind and explain to me how to install a handle tie on a 2 wire 120V circuit?


You can't install a handle tie on one 120 volt circuit but you can on two or more and as 210.7 says there are times when you have to


I would not have busted your chops on this if you had not busted hendrixs. :D
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I think the problem is many people are not aware of 210.7, they go from 210.4 directly to 210.8 ignoring the sections in between. :)

Roger
 

Hendrix

Senior Member
Location
New England
"2 or more", as in three for 3phase.

to op, if you are thinking about that recep on the 15A ckt to be in the same bathroom the 20A ckt is feeding, (or any other bathroom for that matter), then no! there are a couple of different ways to wire a bathroom, and putting a recep on the 15A ckt aint one of them.
Not even close to what I was thinking.
 
"2 or more", as in three for 3phase.

to op, if you are thinking about that recep on the 15A ckt to be in the same bathroom the 20A ckt is feeding, (or any other bathroom for that matter), then no! there are a couple of different ways to wire a bathroom, and putting a recep on the 15A ckt aint one of them.


Are you saying that it is against NEC codes to install a receptacle on a 15 amp circuit in a bathroom. I would think that AFTER I provide my code minimum rect(s) on 20 amp circuit I could install hundreds of 15 amp circuits and receptacles in a bathroom if I wanted to. Maybe I'm wrong.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I would think that AFTER I provide my code minimum rect(s) on 20 amp circuit I could install hundreds of 15 amp circuits and receptacles in a bathroom if I wanted to.
I agree.

Roger
 

ngd4130

Member
wow. nobody has listed 210.4(B), which says all ungrounded conducyors will simultaneously disconnect. The note refers to 240.15(B), looking at (1) Multiwire Branch Circuit, it identifies handle ties & protection of each ungrounded conductor.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
wow. nobody has listed 210.4(B), which says all ungrounded conducyors will simultaneously disconnect. The note refers to 240.15(B), looking at (1) Multiwire Branch Circuit, it identifies handle ties & protection of each ungrounded conductor.
That's because this discussion is not about MWBC's.

Roger
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
If you take a duplex receptacle, break the tabs off to separate the top receptacle from the bottom then run 2 circuits 4 wires to it from the same phase you will need handle ties according to 210.7 as iwire quoted. there is no shared neutral here.

Same would also apply to a combination switch that has more than 1 circuit connected to it, whether it is a MWBC or not.


Correct, but that sure would be a funky looking handle tye. :)
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Probably best to use a Tandem in this instance to keep the Handles close together and also keep both circuits on the same phase, then tye the handles together?
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
To me pulling 2 circuits on the same phase and 2 seperate neutrals does more than just complicate installing the handle tye,doesnt it also needlesssly load up the service neutral since the loads dont cancel out the return neutral current?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
To me pulling 2 circuits on the same phase and 2 seperate neutrals does more than just complicate installing the handle tye,doesnt it also needlesssly load up the service neutral since the loads dont cancel out the return neutral current?

Well, I can pretty much promise you that if you do install handle ties the circuits will be on opposite phases.:cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top