Help me identify older style lighting switch?

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sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Went in to talk to a tax person yesterday about doing my taxes. When she saw I was an electrician she asked me to look at a light switch she was having trouble with. Her office is an addition to an older home. The switch was in the original part of the home.

I wasn't prepared for this, didn't have tools or meter, etc. so I was only able to look at what kind of switch it was. It's definitely something I've never seen before. I took a couple of photos and told her I'd have to research it a little before I could help her out.

Can anyone help me identify this type of lighting system? The rotary dial supposedly allows her to select which light to turn on, then the push button turns that seleced light on. She didn't know too much about the operation of it since she bought the house recently and it has never worked properly. She didn't even know how many lights it operated.

It looks like the push button part of the switch is broken and doesn't work.
That's about all I know about the system, as I didn't even have a flashlight to look into the wall cavity (there was no j-box for the switch, it appeared to be mounted by wood screws to a stud?)

Could it be a low-voltage setup, with contactors located elsewhere in the house? I thought about this after leaving, and have heard about setups like that.

I'm not sure where to go from here? 2012-02-17_09-32-43_500.jpg 2012-02-17_09-33-04_230.jpg
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Never saw one. How many wires are in that box? My bet it is a low voltage switching system. Those systems have a control box with relays and transformers in an attic or somewhere in the house.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
There was no J-box that the wires were in, and that the device mounted onto. The rotary dial had 9 positions, with a wire coming off each spade terminal on the back of the dial. The wires looked like they just went into the wall cavity, but I didn't have a flashlight to look into the cavity.

Jim, the post that you linked looks very similar to this setup. The other switches in the house were similar in appearance to the switches in the link.

This rotary selector and push-button switch might be fine (other than the hack-job installation) - except that the push-button itself appears to be broken. I'm not sure what to do about it, unless I can get a replacement push-button. I think I need to go back and look into the system a little bit more in depth.

The house was built in the 60's so the time frame would be similar to Jim's linked photos.
Thanks for any information,

Sky
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
Could it be a low-voltage setup, with contactors located elsewhere in the house?

Yes, this is exactly what it is, made by GE. Top of the line, and way ahead of it's time. In an area where I do work, Elkins Park, a lot of the larger older homes/mansions/estates have these systems. Some of the supply houses in the area DO have old stock for the system, but outside of the area, just a couple miles, they are nonexistent. GE also still makes some parts of the system that are special order, such as the relays and standard lv switches.

The relays, located usually by the fixture itself, is what most often goes bad if the switch is still good.

Be warned, parts are expensive. I think the last time I needed a couple relays there were around $60/per.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
If it's the system I'm thinking of, the relays are readily available and are still in use today in many energy management lighting panels. You will probably find the relay in the same box the light it controls is fastened to. It fits through a 1/2" KO. It is a very economical mechanically held switch using a 24 volt pulse to open and close the contacts. GE is one of the manufactures that use it, there are a couple of others that slip my mind at this time. As for replacement switches, that may be a little harder to get, individual switches can be easily found,(Lithonia and GE come to mind) but may not be the same style, but the rotary switches may be next to impossible to find.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My guess is if you can't find an exact replacement pushbutton you could always come up with one of your own - modify the plate to accept it, or install a new one in a separate box. A simple push button with appropriate NO or NC contact is all you need. A doorbell pushbutton may even work. This particular station with rotary dial is probably just a master control station. A common lead, a selector for which relay to operate and a push button to operate it. Most other rooms probably only have a push button that only operates the light in that particular room.

There is relays someplace else in the house. Likely all in same location - attic or basement seemed to be common locations for these. They are usually an impulse type relay - they don't need continuous power on the coil, but just need an impulse of control power to change state of relay contacts.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Thanks for the information/responses. I feel like I have a better idea of what this setup is now. The next time I get back to this house I'll look into the option of just replacing the pushbutton part of this switch (assuming that the rotary portion still works). I'll also check into where and how the relays are located, just so I have a better idea of the system.

This is something I've never encountered, but is interesting to look into, and chalk up as a learning experience.

Kwired, and others, I've included a link to a wiring diagram that I think might be how the pushbutton portion of this setup is wired. It looks like the pushbutton might be the RS2, which is the bottom switch on the diagram, and is wired as a 3-wire connection (to turn on and turn off the relay?), but I'm just making this assumption as I didn't look at the pushbutton portion of the switch that closely when I was there.

http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/GE-WIRING/GE-Low-Voltage-Switch-and-Relay-Wiring-Instructions.html

If that is the case, I don't think an individual momentary pushbutton would work. It seems like it would have to be two pb's, kinda like a stop/start pb setup. This website does offer some options and replacement part though, which might do the job.


http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/TP-WIRING-CONVERT/3-Wire-to-Touch-Plate-Low-Voltage-Wiring-Conversion-Guide.html

Thanks for the replies and let me know if this all seems correct, or not,
Sky
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Momentary should work, what happens is the coil is energized, which slides the contacts closed, the other coil is energized to slide the plunger back. Do not use a maintained contact to control these, as it will burn up the coil.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks for the information/responses. I feel like I have a better idea of what this setup is now. The next time I get back to this house I'll look into the option of just replacing the pushbutton part of this switch (assuming that the rotary portion still works). I'll also check into where and how the relays are located, just so I have a better idea of the system.

This is something I've never encountered, but is interesting to look into, and chalk up as a learning experience.

Kwired, and others, I've included a link to a wiring diagram that I think might be how the pushbutton portion of this setup is wired. It looks like the pushbutton might be the RS2, which is the bottom switch on the diagram, and is wired as a 3-wire connection (to turn on and turn off the relay?), but I'm just making this assumption as I didn't look at the pushbutton portion of the switch that closely when I was there.

http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/...age-Switch-and-Relay-Wiring-Instructions.html

If that is the case, I don't think an individual momentary pushbutton would work. It seems like it would have to be two pb's, kinda like a stop/start pb setup. This website does offer some options and replacement part though, which might do the job.

I think there are some systems that used a three wire switch - common/on/off. The relay has two coils on and off.

You may want a momentary contact double throw switch of some type to ensure that somebody doesn't try pushing both on and off at same time as it could be damaging to the relay to recieve both signals at same time.


http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/...late-Low-Voltage-Wiring-Conversion-Guide.html

Thanks for the replies and let me know if this all seems correct, or not,
Sky

I think there are some systems that used a three wire switch - common/on/off. The relay has two coils on and off.

You may want a momentary contact double throw switch of some type to ensure that somebody doesn't try pushing both on and off at same time as it could be damaging to the relay to recieve both signals at same time.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I just had the pleasure of replacing some relay stuff recently. There are two kinds of relays, single coil and double coil. You'll need to figure out which one you need and base your switch replacement on that. Doing the math, for a three wire relay, you'd have 20 leads going to the rotary switch, which looks about what you have. You might find some kind of on-off-on spring loaded rocker that will work locally, but you're probably better off trying to locate an original one.

Here's a source of relays I found that has both two wire and three wire relays in case you need any:

http://www.touchplate.com

They pop through a 1" KO with a rubber grommet, line voltage inside the box, low voltage outside the box.
 
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