cutting in recessed lights without access above how do you?

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KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Just want to see how people do recessed lights without access above. I know how I do it just want to see if anyone has tips or tricks to have minimal cutting of the drywall/plaster.

Do you notch under joists? Also when you run the switch leg you notch out an L shape at the top of the wall above the switch? If so you notch the top plates and nail plate it? I don't see any other way you can run the switch leg without notching the top of the wall.

As far as the lights i read some guys use a long flex bit and drill from a can opening to the next opening. I don't like to blind drill because you don't know if a pex/pvc water pipe or anything is on one of the joists.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Don't play games notching and making "railroad tracks".

Cut a 4 or 6 inch piece (channel) across the beams so you can get up in there and drill.

Save and put the piece back for tapeing and spackleing.

L at ceiling plate. Instead, cut in the top of the wall to drill up. Save and replace that piece when done. Or continue you ceiling chase to the wall,

leaving the wall intact and drilling down.

You could also get creative and place the High Hat opening, drilling into the floor beams and fishing across.

You could also get really really creative, and drilling from the HH opening into the floor beams (ceiling joist) using like those 4' feeler bits (very scary)

I've done full ceilings using that feeler bit technique. No cutting or patching. I don't do that anymore.... it's not worth the risk of drilling into something.


Have fun.
 
Last edited:

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I second those long bits, too scary. You can get a fiber optic camera and check for obsticals.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Don't play games notching and making "railroad tracks".

Cut a 4 or 6 inch piece (channel) across the beams so you can get up in there and drill.

Save and put the piece back for tapeing and spackleing.

L at ceiling plate. Instead, cut in the top of the wall to drill up. Save and replace that piece when done.

You could also get creative and place the High Hat opening, drilling into the floor beams and fishing across.

You could also get really really creative, and drilling from the HH opening into the floor beams (ceiling joist) using like those 4' feeler bits (very scary)

I've done full ceilings using that feeler bit technique. No cutting or patching. I don't do that anymore.... it's not worth the risk of drilling into something.


Have fun.

I normally use a 6" hole saw to drill the drywall on the bottom of the joists. Then I just use a 1" paddle bit and drill the bottom of the joist about a 1/4" to make a channel for the wire then nail plate it. After that i take the drywall puck and screw it back up.

So you don't L notch the top plate? Just drilling up in the top plate is fine but how do you fish a wire back down that hole? Seems like it would take a lot of time to use a steel fish tape up through that little hole.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I normally use a 6" hole saw to drill the drywall on the bottom of the joists. Then I just use a 1" paddle bit and drill the bottom of the joist about a 1/4" to make a channel for the wire then nail plate it. After that i take the drywall puck and screw it back up.

So you don't L notch the top plate? Just drilling up in the top plate is fine but how do you fish a wire back down that hole? Seems like it would take a lot of time to use a steel fish tape up through that little hole.


Nice technique. I figure though with the straight channel it's easier to feather it when I spackle and also the wire is up and away from the nailing face of the beam (joist).

L notch at top. Don't get me wrong sometimes I have to, but for the most part if you open ceiling and drill down......you can send the wire down or a snake or a string.
If you open the top of the wall and drill up, you can send the wire, or snake up and grab it from the ceiling.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Nice technique. I figure though with the straight channel it's easier to feather it when I spackle and also the wire is up and away from the nailing face of the beam (joist).

L notch at top. Don't get me wrong sometimes I have to, but for the most part if you open ceiling and drill down......you can send the wire down or a snake or a string.
If you open the top of the wall and drill up, you can send the wire, or snake up and grab it from the ceiling.

I don't touch spackle I just cover the wire with a sheetrock patch. You wasting time putting spackle on because a finished look takes at least 2 coats and most of the time 3. Leave that up to the painter.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I don't touch spackle I just cover the wire with a sheetrock patch. You wasting time putting spackle on because a finished look takes at least 2 coats and most of the time 3. Leave that up to the painter.

I've got many buckets under my belt.........so I'll hit it once then walk away..............or finish it up depending (went and got one of them home improvement licenses also so kinda do a bit more than wiring when I can get it).
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
I've got many buckets under my belt.........so I'll hit it once then walk away..............or finish it up depending (went and got one of them home improvement licenses also so kinda do a bit more than wiring when I can get it).

Yeah I can patch a hole to perfection but I doubt my customers want to pay my hourly rate for patching. You can use the 10 or 20 minute mud and patch it to perfection but i rather do electric work:thumbsup:
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Yeah I can patch a hole to perfection but I doubt my customers want to pay my hourly rate for patching.

Curious .................does any part of your hourly rate include........"driving" for materials, "measuring" for HH placement, "covering or moving" stuff, "drilling 6 inch holes" in sheetrock to expose joist,
"screwing 6 inch pucks" back in place after removal, "pushing a broom" or "vacuuming" to clean up whatever mess was made......etc.......???

At least one coat is not a biggy...............

:thumbsup:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I use the long bits but I analyze the layout of the house and determine the likelihood of wires or plumbing up above. If the house has a bath over the area then all bets are off. I wired an entire living room with 6 or 8 cans (can't remember) and I didn't have one patch to make. There wasn't even a light in the ceiling either but that was an unusual lucky day.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Curious .................does any part of your hourly rate include........"driving" for materials, "measuring" for HH placement, "covering or moving" stuff, "drilling 6 inch holes" in sheetrock to expose joist,
"screwing 6 inch pucks" back in place after removal, "pushing a broom" or "vacuuming" to clean up whatever mess was made......etc.......???

At least one coat is not a biggy...............

:thumbsup:

Your right that's why I don't do it:lol: One coat doesn't matter because they have at least one more coat and most time two to go.

If that's what you do cool it's your business.

What about the poor painter/drywaller that could use work. What about the handiman that will put in the lights and patch walls / ceilings - all for less than the lights cost the electrician?

I never have had anyone want to go through that kind of destruction to put in something like that unless they were doing a major rennovation of the room in the first place. Then you make all the holes necessary to make it easy and drywallers will fix them. Often it is about as easy to strip the walls if there will be much being torn up and just replace the drywall entirely. Gives a chance to improve insulation if necessary, plumbing, other wiring, etc also.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
At least one coat is not a biggy...............

:thumbsup:


Taping and spackleing a couple straight lines.....not a biggy.

Taping and spackleing some floppy circles pushed down by a nail plate would be a bit different and I would probably not spackle them either.



If that's what you do cool it's your business.


Yep! :thumbsup:




Moving on.

All the best,
Rich
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
Just want to see how people do recessed lights without access above. I know how I do it just want to see if anyone has tips or tricks to have minimal cutting of the drywall/plaster.

Do you notch under joists? Also when you run the switch leg you notch out an L shape at the top of the wall above the switch? If so you notch the top plates and nail plate it? I don't see any other way you can run the switch leg without notching the top of the wall.

As far as the lights i read some guys use a long flex bit and drill from a can opening to the next opening. I don't like to blind drill because you don't know if a pex/pvc water pipe or anything is on one of the joists.


Also when you run the switch leg you notch out an L shape at the top of the wall above the switch? I don't see any other way you can run the switch leg without notching the top of the wall.

I use a 4" hole saw at the top of the wall just below the stud and save the puck ,,,same on the ceiling so i can drill the stud but also see what is above it so you don't drill through any wires or pipes that may be there.

After fishing the switch leg take some strapping screw gun it in the hole then take the puck and screw gun that to the strapping then just patch and make it look like you were never there.

As far as the lights i read some guys use a long flex bit and drill from a can opening to the next opening. I don't like to blind drill because you don't know if a pex/pvc water pipe or anything is on one of the joists.


Once you have made your first hole you should be able to fish between the first and second hole tie some string on the end of your snake so if you can not catch the snake you will be able to catch the string do all the ones that you can fish in the void the the strapping creates if you have to drill beams then use the 4" hole saw on both sides so you can see what is there.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
I use the long bits but I analyze the layout of the house and determine the likelihood of wires or plumbing up above. If the house has a bath over the area then all bets are off. I wired an entire living room with 6 or 8 cans (can't remember) and I didn't have one patch to make. There wasn't even a light in the ceiling either but that was an unusual lucky day.

That is because you are too good at it....:lol::lol:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Taping and spackleing a couple straight lines.....not a biggy.

Taping and spackleing some floppy circles pushed down by a nail plate would be a bit different and I would probably not spackle them either.






Yep! :thumbsup:




Moving on.

All the best,
Rich

Taping and spackling a popcorn textured ceiling... not me - it will look better if you leave the holes there:)
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
All i know is if it's plaster I'm upping my price for sure! Last week I had a job installing only 4 of 6 inch cans in plaster and wood lathe and I'm sick as a dog right now with congestion feel like I have pneumonia:( It was a 100+ year old home and the plaster crumbled like a coffee cake and it was horse hair. I didn't have a dust mask with me and was too lazy to run out buy one thinking oh it's only 4 cans. The amount of dust that came out from just those 4 holes could fill up a nice size box.

From now on if it's plaster the price is double or im not doing it.
 

KVA

Senior Member
Location
United States
Taping and spackleing a couple straight lines.....not a biggy.

Taping and spackleing some floppy circles pushed down by a nail plate would be a bit different and I would probably not spackle them either.

I don't know what you mean floppy? pushed down?

I just scrape that back of the puck out some so it sits flat and screw it down...what's the major malfunction?:lol:
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
...what's the major malfunction?:lol:

My apologies .............. Had some (dare I say) spackling to do in my laundry area I've been trying to finish up (for years). And was alittle annoyed. Sorry for taking it out on you.

I Hate Spackling. Almost as much as painting...and I'd rather dig a ditch than paint.

Yes, plaster dust is brutal. I was actually cutting some HH's in at my brother in laws yrs ago that also had slate dust up in the ceiling. It was amazing what the slate dust did.

Almost immediately I was out in his yard dry heaving for 10 minutes.

Hope you feel better.
 
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