Installing 4" Remodel Cans

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LEO2854

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Ma
How a breaker that's good only for 240V be good for 600V wire? How about switches? receptacles?
Because the voltage applied is dictated by the service and not the wire. You can have 100K volts wire, but if the service is 240V that's what's what required for the devices to be.

You have a good point.:)
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
How a breaker that's good only for 240V be good for 600V wire? How about switches? receptacles?
Because the voltage applied is dictated by the service and not the wire. You can have 100K volts wire, but if the service is 240V that's what's what required for the devices to be.

I do not think that those connectors meet the requirements of 110.14(B)
 

Little Bill

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
If you follow the below advice, you will have enough holes in the ceiling where you should be able to fish that old wire to an appropriately located 4" light.

In a kitchen, with standard height ceilings of 8', you will need roughly (1) 4" 50w recessed light every 24" to 30" at the edges of the counter to get the appropriate working light on the counter top with an even spread.

I have been using 5" cans with 75w halogens for years now with PAR bulbs, and the newer 75w BR halogens are now used where a wider flood is wanted. Remember, a 50w par/r/br has HALF the lumen output as a 75w par/r/br. HALF. 1100 lumens on a 75w compared to 550 lumens on a 50w. That is significant, especially in a kitchen where an absolute minimum of 50 footcandles is needed for task lighting, and 75fc is where it should be. If you place the 4" cans ever 24", with a 550 lumen par/br, you will get roughly 55fc on the counter, and with good undercab lighting you can boost this to just over 70fc on the work surface. Other than sink lighting, I DO NOT recommend 4" line voltage cans in a kitchen.

Just the other day, one of the contractors I do work for asked to do a lighting layout for his kitchen, using old 4" cans that he had stockpiled. He seemed quite surprised that he needed 11 4" cans in his average sized kitchen along the perimeter of the counter. It's tough to grasp the idea that going from 75w to 50w cuts the lumen output in half.

As to what kind, I have never had problems with homeowner supplied Halo remodel recessed lights and their clips, but I use Juno and Lightolier. The Juno 4" cans have 2 clips compared to the Halo 4 clips, but they are the same style, just easier to lock in. Again, I have never had problems with either. You can get Lightolier roughly 4" cans in a different style, where the trim acts as the actual housing. There are three little anchors that you pull tight on a ring, loop them, and then slide the trim/housing up through. I like Lightolier, but their 4" step baffle trims are roughly $40, or nearly 4x's the price of the Juno/Halo 4" step baffles. Their larger sizes are the same price, but 4" is out of hand.

What exactly are the problems you are having with the locking clips on the Halo cans? Try pushing them in by hand, and then to lock them all the way in, use a thin blade screw driver and tap the top edge of the clip to push it the rest of the way in (if that is the problem you are having).

Thanks SVH19044, good info! What is a step baffle? I probably know, may be different terminology.

The 5" Halos I put in would not lock in for nothing. I pushed up on the clip by hand, then used a screw driver to tap them in, finally took my lineman's and whacked them. I put up two of them and I think maybe two clips locked in. I had to put screws in. The directions even said you may have to put the screws in. I took a look at one of the cans and it looked like the slot where the clip lockes in was bent ot over sized. I might have just got two bad cans.

You mentioned half in your bulb description, are you talking about the Par bulbs that are shorter than the regular Pars? I think I heard the lighting clerk mention half Pars, I'm not sure.
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
Thanks SVH19044, good info! What is a step baffle? I probably know, may be different terminology.

The 5" Halos I put in would not lock in for nothing. I pushed up on the clip by hand, then used a screw driver to tap them in, finally took my lineman's and whacked them. I put up two of them and I think maybe two clips locked in. I had to put screws in. The directions even said you may have to put the screws in. I took a look at one of the cans and it looked like the slot where the clip lockes in was bent ot over sized. I might have just got two bad cans.

You mentioned half in your bulb description, are you talking about the Par bulbs that are shorter than the regular Pars? I think I heard the lighting clerk mention half Pars, I'm not sure.

A step baffle is basically a standard trim that has the little ridges in it (like a hundred tiny little 1mm steps) to help with glare reduction.

Some times, if you are working with a lath/plaster ceiling, or double drywall, or thicker than 5/8", you need to bend the clips out a bit(push the clips through before installing, from the exterior of the can, bend the bottom of the clip up and away from the can, then push it back in the can to install) before locking them in if the can doesn't have a separate higher location for the clips.

A 50w par/r/br, whether it is standard OR long neck (LN designation on the bulb number), has 50% the light output rated in lumens as a 75w par/r/bar in standard or long neck. When I said half, I was NOT referring to the physical dimensions of the bulb, rather the light output. The long neck vs standard (longer neck vs shorter neck) has no bearing on light output with these bulbs.
 
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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
A step baffle is basically a standard trim that has the little ridges in it (like a hundred tiny little 1mm steps) to help with glare reduction.

Some times, if you are working with a lath/plaster ceiling, or double drywall, or thicker than 5/8", you need to bend the clips out a bit(push the clips through before installing, from the exterior of the can, bend the bottom of the clip up and away from the can, then push it back in the can to install) before locking them in if the can doesn't have a separate higher location for the clips.

A 50w par/r/br, whether it is standard OR long neck (LN designation on the bulb number), has 50% the light output rated in lumens as a 75w par/r/bar in standard or long neck. When I said half, I was NOT referring to the physical dimensions of the bulb, rather the light output. The long neck vs standard (longer neck vs shorter neck) has no bearing on light output with these bulbs.

Thanks!:thumbsup:
 
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