Efficiency of troubleshooting

Status
Not open for further replies.

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Our Company has 6 service trucks. The Service Manager can not be on all of them all the time. We had an incident recently. Residential service call. Lights dimming when other lights are turned on. The service truck spent several hours on site. Our policy is a 2 man truck for safety reasons. At some point during the call, the owner mentioned that the next door neighbor had a meter change by the Power Company just prior to the problem (don't know exactly when this occurred). The problem ended up being a loose (not open) neutral at the Power Company transformer. Long story short, lack of strong theory knowledge caused the service guys to check several different things and chase down dead ends. Since the service department works on time and material, what would you do about billing? My assesment is that Anything over 3 hours to solve the problem might be too much, anything under 1.5 hours would probably be either lucky, experienced or darn good. Do you tell your Boss (owner) he needs to eat the difference? Do you tell your customer, it is what it is? How do you train your guys to do better? Do you set a limit on time spent before "punting". How do you prepare you customer for potential long length troubleshooting.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't see how you can do anything except T&M.

I also think that there is some point that is reached where the guys on site get beyond their level of competence and the customer should not be charged past that point.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I don't see how you can do anything except T&M.

I also think that there is some point that is reached where the guys on site get beyond their level of competence and the customer should not be charged past that point.

I agree.

Roger
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I don't see how you can do anything except T&M.

I also think that there is some point that is reached where the guys on site get beyond their level of competence and the customer should not be charged past that point.

I agree also, but at what point? And really, shouldn't the customer not be charged more than a minimum charge in these cases?
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Do you set a limit on time spent before "punting".

Do you punt then give the customer a 800 or more dollar bill?

Do you have two guys on the sight for 7 or 8 hours and charge the customer for 2 or 3 hrs....

I see some guys charge for the half hour or hour (service call ) then charge for each half hour ................
I would think, make sure the costumer knows what their getting involved with so there's no questions when they're presented the bill.

Of course though... after they hear the terms...more than likely they'll hang up and call someone else.

Or possibly they'll have you perform the work, locate and repair the problem.......not pay, then you get to see them again in small claims court.


Great way to make a living (or try to ) don't you think?

Peace out men!
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
The question might should be why were service techs sent to do a troubleshoot they were not qualified for? Where are they going tomorrow? Do they know what they're doing? I'm thinking bill it and don't say anything, just don't let it happen again.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Loose neutral is to common of problem not to have been diagnosed in an hour. Charge your minimum and eat the rest.

In most cases an Hour would be fine. I have had some that took much longer because I did not have access to outlets buried behind crap. Then there was several times there were flying splices buried in a wall. Those things you really need to check out thouroghly prior to knocking holes in the wall.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
What is the company's policy or the workers understanding of dimming lights ?

Is there a developed routine in respects to this matter, it doesn't seem there is!

There has been enough information given here on the subject over the years that can be researched and downloaded!

One question that popped in my mind and probably not asked with the initial phone call was there any changes done to the house, and secondly was there any power pole or transformer servicied lately? IE any car accidents!

Funny that the owner knew the next store neighbor had their meter changed... that pointed to the cause.

Seems the client was lucky they didn't toast their own equipment!

Invite them to become a member, but I'd put print-outs of this type of problem sovling in their hands and review it.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
A POCO side neutral issue shouldn't take more than a half four to diagnose, and it should be the first half hour spent on this kind of service call. It sounds like the crew sent out is too inexperienced to be sent on trouble calls.

Before charging the customer, I would ask the crew whether they found any issues and made repairs or not. If they did, charge for their time. If they found absolutely nothing and were just checking good splices or whatever, I would charge this customer some minimum and use the opportunity to educate the two guys on troubleshooting. I learned a lot about troubleshooting working at a company where we all went back to the shop for lunch most days. It gave us all the chance to talk about what we were doing and ask questions - invaluable for learning. Not everybody gets that kind of education so their knowledge has to come from some other source. Also, remind them that they all have phones and should be calling each other to get over their incompetence levels. Either they're a team, or they're not.

Since you stated that these are service crews, I like cadpoint's idea of printing out concepts from here and using them for educating the crews. Set aside some time each week for that. No troubleshooter is going to come across all problems in their work, so augmenting their experience with examples can only make them better service pros. If some are unresponsive to learning, weed them out.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
The question might should be why were service techs sent to do a troubleshoot they were not qualified for? Where are they going tomorrow?


With two men on a truck at least one of them should know what he's doing.

With dimming lights (symptom) that would lead an experienced person to check the service.

Did they check the service (main & meter base) and just miss it or did they get off on a different tact alltogather?

After they didn't locate the problem in say an hour or so what is the standard operateing proceedure? Did they call the shop and ask for help? Five minutes of talking to a more qualified person could have put them on the right track.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
A POCO side neutral issue shouldn't take more than a half four to diagnose, and it should be the first half hour spent on this kind of service call. It sounds like the crew sent out is too inexperienced to be sent on trouble calls.

If power company connections are loose and the connection is being made at the time your there (you have neutral)..........other than getting a long pole and smacking wires at the service connection, or at the transformer,
how would you know?

Pray for wind?

Inexperience in the troubleshooting team may have applied............but maybe not.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
If power company connections are loose and the connection is being made at the time your there (you have neutral)..........other than getting a long pole and smacking wires at the service connection, or at the transformer,
how would you know?

Pray for wind?

Inexperience in the troubleshooting team may have applied............but maybe not.

Dimming and brightening of lights at the same time should point you to the service entrance first. Voltage checks should be made at the line side of the OCPD. Line to line should be, for this exercise, 240v. Line to Neutral should be 120v each and the total of the two should equal 240. 122v on one and 118v on the other indicates a neutral problem, be it right there in front of your nose or prior to it. 120v on one and 118 on the 2nd indicates a higher current or loose connection on the 2nd. Everyting good? Look at the MWBCs and forget the POCO connections. Take into consideration that our power supply in this area is very good.

A thermal imaging camera is a plus and I have found poor POCO pole top connections at 60' away. Nice and cold out that morning.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
122v on one and 118v on the other indicates a neutral problem, be it right there in front of your nose or prior to it.

Oh yeah...............and what if you don't have a nose?

And if you do have a nose, would the length or girth of it play an important role in the troubleshooting equation?




:blink:




Just playing.........thanks ptonsparky :thumbsup:
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Do you punt then give the customer a 800 or more dollar bill?

Do you have two guys on the sight for 7 or 8 hours and charge the customer for 2 or 3 hrs....

I see some guys charge for the half hour or hour (service call ) then charge for each half hour ................
I would think, make sure the costumer knows what their getting involved with so there's no questions when they're presented the bill.

Of course though... after they hear the terms...more than likely they'll hang up and call someone else.

Or possibly they'll have you perform the work, locate and repair the problem.......not pay, then you get to see them again in small claims court.


Great way to make a living (or try to ) don't you think?

Peace out men!

I can't tell. Do you get that we will not be charging the customer a full charge, but that I am asking how you do handle it? We are thinking of setting a 45 minute limit on intitial troubleshooting and then a call to the office where we can evaluate further efforts, and inform the customer of the possible impact.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
The question might should be why were service techs sent to do a troubleshoot they were not qualified for? Where are they going tomorrow? Do they know what they're doing? I'm thinking bill it and don't say anything, just don't let it happen again.

Maybe you have access to tons of reasonable waged over qualified electricians in your area, but I have worked in California and Florida and I can assure you that most of them are found right here at this forum! The skill set for a good foreman and a good service truck leader are the same, but the field foreman position is usually more critical to the Company. We do the best we can, and will likely be implementing some training to prevent this in the future. I kind of feel defensive that so many posters seem to jump on me, when I am trying to get constructive advice on what we already identified as a problem, and are conscientious enough to be concerned with!
 
Last edited:

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Dimming and brightening of lights at the same time should point you to the service entrance first.


Really? It could just as easily point to a bad neutral joint on a multiwire branch circuit and you just wasted time. Again I had hope for less judgement and more content!
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
A POCO side neutral issue shouldn't take more than a half four to diagnose, and it should be the first half hour spent on this kind of service call. It sounds like the crew sent out is too inexperienced to be sent on trouble calls.

Before charging the customer, I would ask the crew whether they found any issues and made repairs or not. If they did, charge for their time. If they found absolutely nothing and were just checking good splices or whatever, I would charge this customer some minimum and use the opportunity to educate the two guys on troubleshooting. I learned a lot about troubleshooting working at a company where we all went back to the shop for lunch most days. It gave us all the chance to talk about what we were doing and ask questions - invaluable for learning. Not everybody gets that kind of education so their knowledge has to come from some other source. Also, remind them that they all have phones and should be calling each other to get over their incompetence levels. Either they're a team, or they're not.

Since you stated that these are service crews, I like cadpoint's idea of printing out concepts from here and using them for educating the crews. Set aside some time each week for that. No troubleshooter is going to come across all problems in their work, so augmenting their experience with examples can only make them better service pros. If some are unresponsive to learning, weed them out.

Thank you and cadpoint. Someone constructive. This is the type of comments that I expected and looked for from the higher than average electricians I believe post here! This is the avenue that the Service Manager is thinking about taking.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top