Does a 208v plug need a neutral?

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suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Note that there isn't a universal set of accepted receptacle symbols. Where I work, we have a huge book of all the symbols. We have 60Hz, 400Hz, 120V, 208V, 480V, single phase, 3 phase, twist lock, straight blade, ... lots of permutations each needing a unique symbol.

Don't expect job A to use the same symbols as job B if they are different customers. About the only constant is the 120V duplex and quadplex symbols. But even those could be on 15A or 20A circuits.

Just ask questions. Someone should be able to tell you what the symbol means (and you may need to reference some other document). Once you get it down to the NEMA number, then you're home free.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
So when you see the first symbol on the plan what wires would you run-- there are 8 choices. Now if the plan has the first symbol and the letter next to it then I got it but I thought it was just the peace symbol
If it were just the "peace" symbol, no letter designator, then I'd say it's an error of omission and requires an RFI... so you'd essentially be correct for such instance.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Mike , that is a weird symbol. and considering everything in the table it would be refering to a wye by I have never seen such a symble and the srange tail sticking out which may be that it is groundied.
BUT!! this is only an educated guess at best as it is most important to get this clarified in writing so that you have it documented,
Dave
 

Rock Crusher

Member
Location
Ne. USA
If it were just the "peace" symbol, no letter designator, then I'd say it's an error of omission and requires an RFI... so you'd essentially be correct for such instance.

I was plugging and switching in a hospital and it had the same symbol. We ended up doing an RFI to find out what equipment went there. It was going to be used for various pieces, ones that neeeded a neutral and ones that didnt. We were told to include the neutral in the pipe for future instals. The one we ended up doing did not need the neutral at the time. Basically, an RFI was needed.
 

Rock Crusher

Member
Location
Ne. USA
I know you guys are all trying to help, but why is a first year apprentice connecting wires and not being sure where they go?

Where is the journeyman?

He was asking us before he asked his JW. But you are correct and I agree. His JW should have gone over this with him originally. IMO.:happyyes:
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
He said he was going to ask his foreman. I never heard mention of a JIW, which made me think that the 1st year apprentice may be working without one.
I'm uncertain of the exact requirement(s), but I don't believe being glued to a JIW throughout each day is one of them. ;)

BTW, the foreman, I would think, is a JIW. :slaphead:
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Somewhere it should be noted what designated receptacle that symbol is for, once you figure out what receptacle is needed it should be obvious wether or not a neutral is needed. If the receptacle does not have a neutral terminal where are you to connect it? If just making pigtails and not sure you can always pigtail a neutral and not use it when receptacle is installed.

Is this a single circuit? MWBC? How do you know which ungrounded conductors and which neutral to use if not single circuits?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I'm uncertain of the exact requirement(s), but I don't believe being glued to a JIW throughout each day is one of them. ;)

BTW, the foreman, I would think, is a JIW. :slaphead:

Technically, foremen don't have to be JIW's. Lot's of 4th and 5th year apprentii run work, but, there still has to be journeymen. In Mich, it's a state law.

1st year apprentii aren't supposed to be working unless they are under the direct supervision of a JIW that is immediately available. There is good reason for that. When I was in the apprenticeship if a first year apprentice was working without direct JIW supervision, someone would be in trouble.

My concern, however, is his safety. He should not be in a position to even have time to resort to posting a question such as this on the Internet. There should be someone qualified immediately available to answer his question, look at his work and assure that he is doing his job correctly. He should not have to wait to talk to a foreman.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Technically, foremen don't have to be JIW's. Lot's of 4th and 5th year apprentii run work, but, there still has to be journeymen. In Mich, it's a state law.

We could quibble about this quite a bit, I see. I do not care to, but I will offer some comment to your post...

Everywhere I've worked (which is obviously not where you have) interprets the requirements as foremen and above must be JIW's. Granted it is not written in stone... but if I were to go to a job where an apprentice was running the work, I'd turn around and go home, as would most other JIW's I know.

I did work a couple jobs where all of the foremen were fresh toppers. I actually supervised two of them for a time during their apprenticeships, working for other contractors. There was a lot of resentment on those projects among the seasoned JIW's, and I have no respect for that company any more (not that I had a whole lot of respect for them to begin with).

1st year apprentii aren't supposed to be working unless they are under the direct supervision of a JIW that is immediately available. There is good reason for that. When I was in the apprenticeship if a first year apprentice was working without direct JIW supervision, someone would be in trouble.

The only time I've ever seen it that way all day, every day is when there was only one JIW on the job (me).

On other jobs, 1st years' were assigned to a JIW for the day or week, but they also got pulled away quite often from that JIW to do stocking, fetch, housekeeping, and other 'vital' tasks.

My concern, however, is his safety.

Duly noted...!!!

He should not be in a position to even have time to resort to posting a question such as this on the Internet.

Before you made this statement, you should have looked at the time stamp of his posts. Likely after work, and one perhaps at lunch time.

There should be someone qualified immediately available to answer his question, look at his work and assure that he is doing his job correctly. He should not have to wait to talk to a foreman.

Immediately available isn't the same as breathing down his neck. :blink:

Do you not consider initiative as a quality in an apprentice?

How much instruction and oversight do you think an apprentice needs to be able to pigtail receptacles? Constant and immediate supervision thereafter?

Granted he should not have to talk to his foreman if he is being supervised by a not-foreman JIW... but in the real world, not all JIW's play the role of instructor very well. Some look at it as training their replacement. Five years to top out is shorter than the time they have until retirement. It's not unusual for some companies to lay off the older non-foreman JIW's first and keep the young guys around longer. Anyway, he may have experienced getting a better reponse on other matters by talking to his foeman. If that were you, what route would you take to get your questions answered?
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
We could quibble about this quite a bit, I see. I do not care to, but I will offer some comment to your post...

I don't think there is a need to quibble, we just may have had different experiences, and I don't think either of us think the OP was in error by posting here. To clear things up, I have no qualms with the OP. To that effect, take some time to read the responses he got and try to do that from the perspective of a 1st year apprentice. Do you think he got a concise answer to his question?


Everywhere I've worked (which is obviously not where you have) interprets the requirements as foremen and above must be JIW's. Granted it is not written in stone... but if I were to go to a job where an apprentice was running the work, I'd turn around and go home, as would most other JIW's I know.

I did work a couple jobs where all of the foremen were fresh toppers. I actually supervised two of them for a time during their apprenticeships, working for other contractors. There was a lot of resentment on those projects among the seasoned JIW's, and I have no respect for that company any more (not that I had a whole lot of respect for them to begin with).

Upper class apprentii running work is rare, but it does happen. Some jobs have JIW's that don't want to run work and if there is a sharp upper class apprentice that does, it just may become so. Especially in control work, where the apprentice may have much more up to date training than any JIW on the job, and savor the opportunity to get some experience running work. I've never seen any resentment, but the few times that apprentii were running work, they were well liked, knowledgeable and respected their unique position.

When I was a 5th year apprentice I was on a conductor testing crew at a NG peaker build. The JIW running our crew got run off (he deserved it) and none of the JIW's on the crew wanted his job. I was offered the opportunity to run the crew (with no raise) and jumped on the opportunity. I had up to 4 JIW's working for me as time went on. None of them wanted to look at prints, use the computer in the office trailer, set up Hi-Pots and record the info, work with the outside testing facility or interface with the engineering personnel or make decisions concerning the effort in any way. It worked out great, no one complained and I learned a great deal and even made some friends in the process.


On other jobs, 1st years' were assigned to a JIW for the day or week, but they also got pulled away quite often from that JIW to do stocking, fetch, housekeeping, and other 'vital' tasks.

Same here, but not electrical work, and my local was very strict about the direct supervision of 1st year apprentii. Late in my 1st year I was working with a JIW that hated scissor lifts. He would be my 'ground crew' while I went up in the lift. He was never out of my sight. I worked industrial maintenance before I became an apprentice and got the habit of flashing the hot and the neutral together before I touched them to make sure the circuit was off. I did that one day and the circuit was not off (well it was earlier) and I made a nice 277 volt fireball. Just as I did that, the foreman walked in. I assured the foreman that I had years of experience with 277 and the reasoning behind what I did. He didn't care. He reamed out the JIW for letting me in the lift alone. Watching from the ground wasn't good enough when working with 1st year apprentii.


Before you made this statement, you should have looked at the time stamp of his posts. Likely after work, and one perhaps at lunch time.

Which tells me he did not have proper supervision if he left work without an answer to his question, which is certainly not his fault.



Immediately available isn't the same as breathing down his neck. :blink:

I agree, but immediately available should at least mean before lunch or before brassing out for the day.

Do you not consider initiative as a quality in an apprentice?

Absolutely! I commend the OP for his question. My beef is not with him, but with whoever is supposed to be his JIW.

How much instruction and oversight do you think an apprentice needs to be able to pigtail receptacles? Constant and immediate supervision thereafter?

At least enough to not have to go home and get on the Internet and ask questions about it.

Granted he should not have to talk to his foreman if he is being supervised by a not-foreman JIW... but in the real world, not all JIW's play the role of instructor very well. Some look at it as training their replacement. Five years to top out is shorter than the time they have until retirement. It's not unusual for some companies to lay off the older non-foreman JIW's first and keep the young guys around longer. Anyway, he may have experienced getting a better reponse on other matters by talking to his foeman. If that were you, what route would you take to get your questions answered?

I spent my entire first year paired up with a JIW. It was mandatory. If we were apart, it was for a few minutes only, and if someone asked me where my JIW was, I had better have an answer. So, I always had a JIW to consult, and if that was not sufficient and class was going on, I would bring my question to class. I had four different JIW's in my first year and they were all great and taught me an enormous amount about the trade. If a JIW was known for not wanting to teach, they were not paired up with a first year apprentice.

Maybe such a practice is considered 'old school', but in Michigan it's a state law that ALL apprentii be under the direct supervision of a licensed journeyman (JIW is a union thing and not recognized by the State of Michigan), and there can only be a ratio of 2 apprentii for each journeyman. In some cases it's one to one.
 
Hello all, I'm new here. Not sure if I'm posting in the correct section so forgive me if I'm not. I'm a 1st bracket union apprentice and have a couple questions in regard to a 208v or 240? I'm working on a commercial project (most of what we do is commercial/industrial) with a 3 phase 120v/208v system. Friday I was "making" up receptacles and ran across one of the plugs needing to be the top symbol that resembles a peace sign on the blueprint.

1) when working with a 3 phase system, is the plug to be 208v instead of 240v?

2) when "making up" the wires, does it need a neutral for the plug? I know it gets 2 legs for that roundhouse. I know a 240v residential plug does not need a neutral.

Thanks in advance,

Mike
What is 1st bracket?
you said making up receptacles, than you said you ran across one of the plugs......is it a receptacle or male plug?
The answer is if the equipment requires a netrual than you need a different configeration. like NEMA L14-20R or L14-20P
And when working with 3 phase the correct term is 250 volt or 125/250 volt. There is no plug or receptacle that is 208 or 240 volt.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What is 1st bracket?
you said making up receptacles, than you said you ran across one of the plugs......is it a receptacle or male plug?
The answer is if the equipment requires a netrual than you need a different configeration. like NEMA L14-20R or L14-20P
And when working with 3 phase the correct term is 250 volt or 125/250 volt. There is no plug or receptacle that is 208 or 240 volt.

I don't find any devices with a straight 208 volt rating but there are 120/208 rated ones such as L18-20 or L21-20 - which both could easily be what gets installed in the OP situation.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
I don't find any devices with a straight 208 volt rating but there are 120/208 rated ones such as L18-20 or L21-20 - which both could easily be what gets installed in the OP situation.
I have never seen the L18 installed when I have needed to install a plug on small machines; it has no equipment ground. The L21 is suitable for 3 phase and single phase loads, but is uncommon.

EVERY case where I've been involved with furnishing and installing a plug (I'm NOT the electrician, rather the commissioning technician here), I've found the L15 used for BOTH 240/3/60 and 208/3/60 __WHEN NO 120 LOADS__ are used on the 208. My situation here is with portable equipment with motors under 5HP, usually 2 or 3 HP.

I've asked the various electrical contractors, several times, why they use this, and the response is usually something like "we're under 250V and this is what every body uses when there are no single phase loads".
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have never seen the L18 installed when I have needed to install a plug on small machines; it has no equipment ground. The L21 is suitable for 3 phase and single phase loads, but is uncommon.

EVERY case where I've been involved with furnishing and installing a plug (I'm NOT the electrician, rather the commissioning technician here), I've found the L15 used for BOTH 240/3/60 and 208/3/60 __WHEN NO 120 LOADS__ are used on the 208. My situation here is with portable equipment with motors under 5HP, usually 2 or 3 HP.

I've asked the various electrical contractors, several times, why they use this, and the response is usually something like "we're under 250V and this is what every body uses when there are no single phase loads".

I see abuse of using the proper rating for a cord and plug a lot. Most of the time there is no other possible equipment on site that could plug into the incorrect place so I don't get too concerned about it.

Most often the one I see is the 10-50 (3 wire range type) used where type 6-50 should be used. They are also used frequently in places where there should be 20 or 30 amp circuits installed instead of 50 amp, or there is 20 or 30 amp circuit with a 50 amp receptacle.
 

mikeyv

Member
Location
Ca.
Wow, been so busy. Nice to see all the replies. Just wanted to clear some things up. I've been working along side a JW, but he leaves me alone for periods and asks me to find him if I have any questions. He didn't expect me to just know that 208 scnenario. Again, I was just exercising this useful and knowledgeable forum to take the initiative to learn more on my own before approaching my JW for what he wanted out of that receptacle. Turns out that it was like some of you said that because it was in a concession area (food & beverage based) that it would most likely need a neutral and we pulled one anyway. Thanks for all the replies. Happy weekend to you all.
 

vanvan

Member
Hey Mike, the symbol that looks like a peace sign usually denotes a motor/equipment hook up. Generally when you see it you will also see the name of this equipment (I.e. SSHP, fhu, or in
Your case some sort of kitchen equipment). Your power plans will have an equipment schedule a lot of times on same page explaining what equipment is and its power/hook up requirements.
I think it's very good that you are working on your own time and trying to figure this stuff out on your own. There are a large number of really sharp individuals on this site and def a
Resource you can use for your whole career. Good luck with your apprenticeship.
 
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