Kosher or NOT

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Strife

Senior Member
A GRC feeding a panel gets uncovered while doing a bath remodel (conduit was ran across the toilet) and said conduit is basically gone for about the 6" across the toilet drain. Obviously the owner does not want to pay for a new conduit and wires. Pulling the wires out and pulling new wires in is OUT OF THE QUESTION(I'm talking 1-1/4" conduit with 3-#3 of THOSE OLD THHW that makes a #3/0 look small),
So if I fix the pipe with a PVC kit, put a ground clamp on both sides and run a bond?
Kosher? or NOT?
I know a lot will jump up and down, but I'm curious to the reasoning. Wires will be protected, grounding will be restored... And I know some will invoke SOME NEC article.
ONE THING THOUGH, please don't tell me how other areas of the conduit may be compromised as well. Not my QUESTION.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
So if I fix the pipe with a PVC kit, put a ground clamp on both sides and run a bond?
Kosher? or NOT?

In my opinion you could be easily cited with 110.3(B) for the PVC kit.



I know a lot will jump up and down, but I'm curious to the reasoning.

No jumping up and down, I just see it as a technical violation, I don't see it as unsafe, just a violation.
 
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cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
The first paragraph qualifies an application the second one deny's it...

Tell the Person you fix or walk it's now not their descision!
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
If it's getting inspected (and the inspector is not blind) your problem is solved. Is there any room to cut it and j-box it on either end, or is it just "FUBAR" and between floors?

Add on: Keep in mind, the owner is saying, "NO WAY" right now but if it fails later it's your butt in the court room defending why you didn't fix it correctly.
 
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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
International Metal Hose Company, out of Ohio, makes an Oval Flex product

If inspectors pass this, why not 1-1/4" GRC couplings to flex with an oval pinch on a vise.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
This is what is called "unseen and unexpected conditions" that come up during a remodel. The customer will complain that they dont have the money, but almost 99% of the time they have money but it is the human nature to complain.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How long is the feeder?

Did they also decline to fix the plumbing problem that led to all this in the first place?

If there would have been rotted framing that compromised structural integrity would they have repaired that?

They can sell the copper that was removed for scrap to help offset costs if they are that tight with their money.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
No jumping up and down, I just see it as a technical violation, I don't see it as unsafe, just a violation.



I was thinking that "If" the AHJ is also a Rabi and they can get him to bless this repair then it would be kosher.

I'm talking special permission from the AHJ (in writing ) if this really is cost prohibitive.
:cry:
In some areas I may be able to get pemission but in others not a chance.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I was thinking that "If" the AHJ is also a Rabi and they can get him to bless this repair then it would be kosher.

I'm talking special permission from the AHJ (in writing ) if this really is cost prohibitive.
:cry:
In some areas I may be able to get pemission but in others not a chance.

The problem with getting the AHJ to give "special permission" is, By identifying the problem in writing you are putting yourself on public record as knowing an unsafe condition (code violation) exists and you are not fixing it correctly. Now both you and the AHJ can be found liable in a courtroom. We are the professionals, and it is not the homeowners field of expertice, so by default the homeowner can not make a code violation but we can.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The problem with getting the AHJ to give "special permission" is, By identifying the problem in writing you are putting yourself on public record as knowing an unsafe condition (code violation) exists and you are not fixing it correctly. Now both you and the AHJ can be found liable in a courtroom. We are the professionals, and it is not the homeowners field of expertice, so by default the homeowner can not make a code violation but we can.

It is highly unlikely the AHJ can be found liable for anything. being a unit of government they have sovereign immunity for the most part.

In any case, it is not a code violation if the AHJ gives special permission.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I believe that we are allowed to run the ground on the outside of the raceway.

I am more concerned about those older wires, which I expect have a limited remaining life. Does the customer understand that he could very well be required to tear apart that new bathroom in another year? Let me stress the point: the wires were NOT that large when new; they swell over time, as they absorb moisture from the air. They are well on their way to failure. Time for a complete replacement of the wires and the pipe.

Part of me wants to let these 'penny wise' folks stew in their own juices, and just not argue. They're so smart, let them pay three times for the same job! This, of course, is tempered by the recent fashion of 'flipping,' where everyone applies cosmetics, then passes the hidden problems on to the next guy. :(

Oh, as for the "Kosher" question .... I see no use of unclean animal product, or improper slaughter causing unnecessary suffering, or of pagan blessings being applied to this wiring. I do, however, have my concerns whether the proposed repair is akin to mixing the milk with the meat, and therefore not allowed. :)
 
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growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
In any case, it is not a code violation if the AHJ gives special permission.


You are correct Bob. I have gotten special permission when a problem needed to be corrected and the customer didn't have the money and I could show that it would cause a financial hardship for the customer.

As Iwire stated it would not be dangerous to repair. Now if this is an old lady that would have to eat cat food if she is forced to pay for a new installation it's possible to get permission ( sometimes). If it's just a cheap slum lord then probably not.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
You are correct Bob. I have gotten special permission when a problem needed to be corrected and the customer didn't have the money and I could show that it would cause a financial hardship for the customer.

As Iwire stated it would not be dangerous to repair. Now if this is an old lady that would have to eat cat food if she is forced to pay for a new installation it's possible to get permission ( sometimes). If it's just a cheap slum lord then probably not.

I am somewhat (but not completely) surprised that financial hardship is considered grounds for special permission.

I always figured it was more along the lines of "impractical due to unusual circumstances but we can do something that is just as safe".
 
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