Sleeping at night? Things we get involved in.......oh my.

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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Hi all,

Alittle therapy for me in this post.

When I started in this business yrs. ago, a teacher mentioned how with his wiring practices that he could sleep at night.

Well, along the way there have been a few things that I touched that I would lose alittle sleep over..............................

Most recent is a feeder (aerial, it is wrong but thats another story) that feeds a bath house building on a side of a mountain .

The bath house has a main lug 60a panel located in a attic craw space. Square D type XO., Well, one of the phases "in" the 50a main breaker feeding the panel fried and they lost power to one buss.

There are 4 very light (not heavy) 15 amp circuits in the panel. I rewired it at the panel to create 2-15a light (not heavy) circuits both fed from the same phase that is working.

Of course I should not have done this because now that the power is on in the building, the owner considers it repaired.

I know sight unseen, you may not be able to comment, but without removing the 2 pole main breaker (feeding the main lug panel)from the busses (it's live, and I have a new found respect for arc fault) it appears the
melt down is "internal" in the breaker.

What could the odds be that half of the breaker burnt internally and did not effect the other half?

Should I let it go and lose sleep? Should I go there with a new panel and replace it if I get paid for it or not?

On the invoice, I had mentioned the situation and that it is advisable to change the XO panel to a new QO. Does this help with my liability, or am I duped if the bath house and the side of the mountain burns.


Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.................
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
If I understood what you did correctly (made it a 4 pole 120v panel), I don't see a problem that I would loose sleep over.
There may be violations under the present Code that would not have been enforce when the system was installed, but you did not comprise the safety IMHO.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I won't loose any sleep either. The attic location has been there for a while. Existing. Not your problem. Nothing wrong with a building having a 120v service as long as it is big enough. I do not believe a load side, afci would have helped you.

That said, I have seen a QO panel with a hole burned clear thru the enclosure fron arcing at a buss connection. You should cya by recommending a better permanent fix. Sweet dreams.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
If I understood what you did correctly (made it a 4 pole 120v panel),


Yes.

fed from a 50a 2 pole, (1 pole internally burnt) breaker..... making it a 1 pole 50a.

Thanks guys...............I'll try not to lose the sleep..............ha ha ha

(I live down the block, and everytime I hear fire engine sirens or the fire whistles blow...........I find myself looking toward the mountain......)
 
Unless I misread your post, I would be concerned that the 50amp DP breaker with 1 leg "fried" and 1 leg "working" may not be providing OCP. Will it open when (if) it is supposed to? How do you know? I don't think I could leave a half burnt-up breaker in a panel. If I'm the last one to work on it I think I'm liable. Sorry if this ruins your beauty sleep.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I would be concerned that the 50amp DP breaker with 1 leg "fried" and 1 leg "working" may not be providing OCP. Will it open when (if) it is supposed to? How do you know? I don't think I could leave a half burnt-up breaker in a panel. If I'm the last one to work on it I think I'm liable. Sorry if this ruins your beauty sleep.

Yes mike.............I agree.

For one thing..........I need all the "beauty" sleep I can get............ha ha ha

Secondly...........the "I'm the last one to work on it I think I'm liable". The feed to the building is overhead from quadplex (3 insulated, one uninsulated 120/240v delta) cable running throughout a camp facility. This building is using single
phase 3 wire (2 ins. 1 bare...no hot leg))

4 wire....3 phase (insulated) ground/neutral (uninsulated). Each building has a separate ground rod and they wired the camp as if they were they utility company just bringing a ground on the quadplex to each building "after" the main OCP
instead of a neutral and a ground. If I where to swap out the panel........I would be installing this new panel on an improperly fed feeder............how far back to the power source should I go before it wasn't me (or I'm liable)????

(answer: 600') also the main 400a 3 phase 4 wire service is not grounded.


I don't much have a problem if the 50a main ocp doesn't trip and stays in the on position (unless turned off), my main concern is in the guts of the breaker......that hopefully there is enough separation and the "good" side has not been compromised...........but as you mentioned, "how do you know"?


argg.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
I was wondering what type of 50 amp main breaker you are referring to that is difficult to change. Apparently not a 50 amp in a larger panel. I have had this more than a few times, 100 amp main turning off half the power. Only one time with a murray breaker I removed the breaker and it was so burnt up I don't know how the other half was still working. Tell the guy you're worried about it and want to change it, maybe ask for the materiel only or something. I've had a few things where I've written on the invoice temporary repair but I still don't know if that exonerates you.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
50 amp one of these.................

two things, they are kinda obsolete, and the 200 amp breaker on the other side of the camp I don't trust..as far as if it will turn back on again if I turn it off and that arc fault thing.

also if I cut it off at the building then retie the panel may show a bit more than just the breaker.........also if I replace it, might I just replace it with a new panel and breaker.............

I'd like to do better than it is now, but don't want to over extend myself....................we'll see, maybe I'll do something with it.


Type XO...............you'll notice the 2 clips on the single pole, one is hot the other just clamps....on 2 pole, both clips are hot.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
OK I see what you mean about not wanting to get into those old breakers. Hopefully it will fail completely and you can change the whole thing. Not long ago I turned off a 100 amp main in a 3-family and it wouldn't reset. I couldn't believe it. I had a used one in the truck and had to change it hot cause the meters were locked. I guess there's a lot of things you can worry about. How about changing a fixture where they have the old pancake box with like four bx's in it all mashed up against the ceiling. Fun. One time I had a bx, metal box with a plug in it, laying on the floor after they had demo'd the wall. I moved it with my foot and it flamed up, then when it fell back the other way it went out. I don't know what that was, maybe someone does. Scary thing is that box had been buried in the wall. So bottom line, keep up that insurance policy!
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
You kind of fumbled this one from the start. Here's what you should have done:
1) "Made it work"
2) Give him a price that includes "doing it right"
3) Go back and "make it right for free."
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
You kind of fumbled this one from the start. Here's what you should have done:
1) "Made it work"
2) Give him a price that includes "doing it right"
3) Go back and "make it right for free."


Thanks for the response. We are finally getting some rain so the mountain shouldn't be as dry. The camp isn't up and running yet so there should be no load on that bum breaker till it gets repaired,
which I'm walking out the door now to set it up to make it happen (putting on my salesman hat).

I should not have done #1.
Because I don't want to do #3.
Should have done #2............although #2 is more than meets the eye. (600+ feet away).

I may have to go for a partial #2.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
OK................approved for a partial #2.

We'll hopefully address objectionable current and grounded current carrying conductors another day.


Thanks guys.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I will do a lot of stuff but I wouldn't do a half assed repair like that unless it was for a day or two.

New panels and breakers are extremely inexpensive and they are the heart of the safety system. If one leg was bad in the breaker, wouldn't you think the other side may have issues also?

It's not like we are talking thousands of dollars here. 30 bucks for a panel and 8 for a breaker isn't going to break anyone. . Go back and insist that it be done properly.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
changed panel today.......thank you for the push......

I dissected the breaker..........the working side looked worse than the non working side.

So again thanks for the push on it............now I have to talk them into correcting the stray voltage, objectionable current issues...................


Thousands ...........if not tens of................$$$. But things are working. I doubt they will, and I guess I stuck my neck out.

Anything for a buck.
jeez.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Ha Ha.

Went to pick up a Sq. D panel today from Home desperate.

100amp 6 space 12 circuit main lug load center for a small condo sub panel replacement (federal pacific......realty home inspection wants it changed).

The same panel I picked up last week for this post panel change.

Went to ring it up and they would not sell it to me..........that it has been recalled.

What could be recalled about it. It's a metal box with some plastic holding the usual sq.d buss bars?

Called some other electrical suppliers.........no one had it. Called a Square D distributor, they have it, on my way to pick it up.

So great, I replaced a burning panel with a malfunctioning panel......... geez.......ha ha ha.


So two questions..........what could be wrong with the home desperate panel to warrant a recall?

And the place I'm installing the new panel used to be called apartments. When did apartments become condos..................ha ha ha ha..............(just got it. physically it's the same.....it's a paper work thing , owner thing......ha ha ha)

So maybe the mountain will burn after all....................wow.
 
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