The nerve of some people

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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Last week I was asked if I had time to wire up a couple rooms in a to be finished basement. Time? Sure, time is what I have most of right now.

So, today, the friend that asked me calls with the requirements of the job from the HO, family of one of his friends.

1) She (HO) wants a professional job but does not want to pay a professional price.

2) She does not want any permits pulled.

3) Her husband works at an electrical supply house and will provide all the materials.

4) This is the continuation of a bigger job that 'someone in the family' started and bailed on because they 'no longer have time'.

When my friend called me back he knew what I was going to tell him and could hardly get through the 'requirements' without laughing.

The sad part is, I have no doubt she will find someone to suck into this trap.

She's lucky that she talked to my friend and not to me. I would have laughed in her face.

That's probably why I'm not in sales.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Last week I was asked if I had time to wire up a couple rooms in a to be finished basement. Time? Sure, time is what I have most of right now.

So, today, the friend that asked me calls with the requirements of the job from the HO, family of one of his friends.

1) She (HO) wants a professional job but does not want to pay a professional price.

2) She does not want any permits pulled.

3) Her husband works at an electrical supply house and will provide all the materials.

4) This is the continuation of a bigger job that 'someone in the family' started and bailed on because they 'no longer have time'.

When my friend called me back he knew what I was going to tell him and could hardly get through the 'requirements' without laughing.

The sad part is, I have no doubt she will find someone to suck into this trap.

She's lucky that she talked to my friend and not to me. I would have laughed in her face.

That's probably why I'm not in sales.

I once worked with a fella who at one time had been a stone mason. I had a couple of pedestals flanking the front steps that were in worse than sad shape. He agreed to replace them, and shame on me for not asking his price up front. I bought all the materials and assisted in the demo, so all he made was his labor. I swallowed hard a little at the time, but I wasn't about to haggle after the fact. He was the professional, and even though it seemed expensive, I trust that he gave me an honest price.

"The workman is worth his wages."
 

Teaspoon

Senior Member
Location
Camden,Tn.
Had a fellow ask me about wiring a shop for him about a year ago.
I said sure call me when you are ready.
Well he called a few days ago. I went out to look at the job.
Big nice block building about 40X60.
He had already installed the conduit for the underground.
But stopped the conduit about 8" from the wall.
I told him it is really going to be hard to make this look nice.
He has already bought his Breaker panel,some conduit & wall boxes.
I recommended that he lay another coarse of blocks and cap them off,
where the meter base will set. this will make the meter base line up with the conduit. This Idea will cost to much he thinks.Wants me to use 45's.
Going to look really bad I said.
He said i want you to wire the entrance in. and maybe more if it don't cost to much. He said he wants 2 rows of (7) 8'strip lights ceiling is about 12ft.
I would really rather not touch this job. But have known these people for a while. Would rather bow out gracefully. This is another example of how people will use you.I told him we would see about building the entrance ,setting the panel and installing a light and receptacle then take it from there on the rest. I doubt that I will be cheap enough.People who have never been in business have no clue.
 

TobyD

Senior Member
I have a similiar project that a customer has requested a price on.He's started the job and actually the work thus far looks good.Now that he's at a stumbling point he's open for bid's.So, I give him a bid and he haggles me a little bit.But, I was high on my bid and I left room to negoiate with him.This is an aircraft hanger.Go figure ,this guy can afford a plane along with all the CNC equipment for misc. shop use and he's concerned about saving $100 on the electrical install.
 

Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
Couple years ago a lady who is a "designer" that we've done some work for calls me to meet her at a client's house. As we walk through, she's all proud of herself showing me how they replaced this ceiling here, and added that wall there, etc. These new ceilings had paddle fans hung on them, and the new walls had outlets and switches. Apparently, in her mind, I'm obviously either blind or stupid.

Then we get to my part. She needs a washer outlet and a dryer outlet installed in the nasty basement. Also, the dishwasher line needs to be hooked in the panel. "Don't worry, we ran the wire for you." Basically the carpenters on the job working for $25 an hour were much cheaper labor, but when it came to figuring out how to hook these circuits to an already full panel, now they couldn't handle it.

We did the work, but the carpenters wouldn't look me in the eye the entire time (and have since called us to work as their sub), and the lady was surprisingly shocked when our rates suddenly went way up.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
1) She (HO) wants a professional job but does not want to pay a professional price.
Time to walk away.
2) She does not want any permits pulled.
Time to run away
3) Her husband works at an electrical supply house and will provide all the materials.
Time to make less $$$
4) This is the continuation of a bigger job that 'someone in the family' started and bailed on because they 'no longer have time'.
Time to disappear and get as far away from this project as you can. You can also ask them if they would promise to NOT SUE YOU if their house burns down due to an electrical fire
The sad part is, I have no doubt she will find someone to suck into this trap.
There an a$$ for every saddle !!!:happyyes:
 

satcom

Senior Member
The big red flag would be a customer that does not want a permit pulled, they are willing to put the largest investment of their life at risk, and expect you to risk loosing your license and if there is any insurance on the home you will become part of the legal problems, and if a life is lost, criminal charges, the never of some people is a good subject line. and if the think you are insured for these problems, think again.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
Last week I was asked if I had time to wire up a couple rooms in a to be finished basement. Time? Sure, time is what I have most of right now.

So, today, the friend that asked me calls with the requirements of the job from the HO, family of one of his friends.

1) She (HO) wants a professional job but does not want to pay a professional price.

2) She does not want any permits pulled.

3) Her husband works at an electrical supply house and will provide all the materials.

4) This is the continuation of a bigger job that 'someone in the family' started and bailed on because they 'no longer have time'.

When my friend called me back he knew what I was going to tell him and could hardly get through the 'requirements' without laughing.

The sad part is, I have no doubt she will find someone to suck into this trap.

She's lucky that she talked to my friend and not to me. I would have laughed in her face.

That's probably why I'm not in sales.


With her supplying the stock you have to charge a higher rate to make up for the lost markup ,And the fact that she does not want permits pulled that is nothing but trouble and I would just give them a super high price..:happyyes:
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
The big red flag would be a customer that does not want a permit pulled, they are willing to put the largest investment of their life at risk, and expect you to risk loosing your license and if there is any insurance on the home you will become part of the legal problems, and if a life is lost, criminal charges, the never of some people is a good subject line. and if the think you are insured for these problems, think again.

The fact that she doesn't want a permit pulled shows she is willing to cheat the government. The fact that she had her family do as much as they could without a license shows me she is willing to cheat the trades. The fact that she wants to supply her own materials shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my mark up. The fact that she wants a pro job but not a pro price shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my wages.

Like I said, that's some nerve!

And no, I did not get, nor do I want, that job.
 

satcom

Senior Member
The fact that she doesn't want a permit pulled shows she is willing to cheat the government. The fact that she had her family do as much as they could without a license shows me she is willing to cheat the trades. The fact that she wants to supply her own materials shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my mark up. The fact that she wants a pro job but not a pro price shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my wages.

Like I said, that's some nerve!

And no, I did not get, nor do I want, that job.

"doesn't want a permit pulled shows she is willing to cheat the government." She is not cheating the government, the city does not make money from a premit fee they are revenue neutral, and the taxpayers do not pay the cost of a permit, She is cheating the insurance companies, not the government, the insurance companies underwrite the risk of providing insurance for permitted constuction, as contractors we should have a good understanding of why permits are required, so we can inform the consumers of the risk of operating without a permit.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
"doesn't want a permit pulled shows she is willing to cheat the government." She is not cheating the government, the city does not make money from a premit fee they are revenue neutral, and the taxpayers do not pay the cost of a permit, She is cheating the insurance companies, not the government, the insurance companies underwrite the risk of providing insurance for permitted constuction, as contractors we should have a good understanding of why permits are required, so we can inform the consumers of the risk of operating without a permit.

AHJ's are not revenue neutral. Out here, they get payed per inspection and that is their wages. So she is cheating at least one government employee out of 35 or 50 bucks. And he doesn't deserve it, he is a nice guy.
 

satcom

Senior Member
AHJ's are not revenue neutral. Out here, they get payed per inspection and that is their wages. So she is cheating at least one government employee out of 35 or 50 bucks. And he doesn't deserve it, he is a nice guy.


Our AHJ is also paid from inspection fees and by state law they must operate the department revenue neutral, and there may be some areas there may be cities trying to use permit revenue for general funds, and if the laws in their state allows it, then that is fine, but either way the insurance underwriting process requires inspections in order for the cities to keep a good underwriting rating, and allow the property owners to obtain insurance at an decent rate.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
The fact that she doesn't want a permit pulled shows she is willing to cheat the government. The fact that she had her family do as much as they could without a license shows me she is willing to cheat the trades. The fact that she wants to supply her own materials shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my mark up. The fact that she wants a pro job but not a pro price shows that she is willing to cheat me out of my wages.

Like I said, that's some nerve!

And no, I did not get, nor do I want, that job.

well, even dummies have the right to a quality electrical installation.
unless i have an enormous aversion to the customer, my pricing strategy
in situations like this, i figure out what i want out of the job, and double it.
then, i get 50% up front, and 50% after final inspection.

when a customer doesn't want a ticket pulled, then i *really* want a ticket
pulled.

the fact that you have mutual friends makes it awkward.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
well, even dummies have the right to a quality electrical installation.
unless i have an enormous aversion to the customer, my pricing strategy
in situations like this, i figure out what i want out of the job, and double it.
then, i get 50% up front, and 50% after final inspection.

when a customer doesn't want a ticket pulled, then i *really* want a ticket
pulled.

the fact that you have mutual friends makes it awkward.

Not in this case. He pretty much knew what I was going to say before he called.

Realize, that as far as the inspection, it's not the money, it's the fact that prior work was done and buried without a permit or an inspection and an inspection at this point would reveal that.
 
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satcom

Senior Member
Not in this case. He pretty much knew what I was going to say before he called.

Realize, that as far as the inspection, it's not the money, it's the fact that prior work was done and buried without a permit or an inspection and an inspection at this point would reveal that.


They must have no idea, of the problems not having a permit can cause, wait until they try to sell the house, or they have a fire or accident at the house and the city investigates, and they loose their insurance coverage.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
They must have no idea, of the problems not having a permit can cause, wait until they try to sell the house, or they have a fire or accident at the house and the city investigates, and they loose their insurance coverage.

You are preaching to the choir, bro.

However, I have never heard of an insurance company refusing to pay based upon a code violation, and we have done work that involved fires due to NEC violations.

As far as selling the house, being up to code is not a requirement, nor is an inspection. That's why there is a private sector 'home inspector' business.

I live in semi-rural Michigan adjacent to rural Michigan. The non compliant installations I see out here just floor me. It's a wonder people aren't getting killed on a daily basis, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Unfortunately, that factoid is often used to substantiate the mess in the first place and nearly always used as a defense of said messes.

I refuse to argue with people. It's pretty much my way or the highway. If I think there is any hope, I may toss them a code book and tell them 'here are the rules' and to read through it a couple times and then we will discuss the alternatives.
 

satcom

Senior Member
You are preaching to the choir, bro.

However, I have never heard of an insurance company refusing to pay based upon a code violation, and we have done work that involved fires due to NEC violations.

As far as selling the house, being up to code is not a requirement, nor is an inspection. That's why there is a private sector 'home inspector' business.

I live in semi-rural Michigan adjacent to rural Michigan. The non compliant installations I see out here just floor me. It's a wonder people aren't getting killed on a daily basis, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Unfortunately, that factoid is often used to substantiate the mess in the first place and nearly always used as a defense of said messes.

I refuse to argue with people. It's pretty much my way or the highway. If I think there is any hope, I may toss them a code book and tell them 'here are the rules' and to read through it a couple times and then we will discuss the alternatives.

There is no code requirement to inspect for sale, but when was the last time you tried to sell a home without the buyer asking for a home inspection in the sales contract. I don;t know how it is out your way, but around the tri state area you would be hard pressed to find a mortage company that would not require a home inspection. Our inspectors just look at the work on the permit, they do not look for other violations unless it is a violation that shouts look at me I am dangerous.
 
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