Is a Jbox considered a device?

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Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
There is a house with a pvc jbox feeding a generator that is 24" away from gas meter.
The local gas company requires that any electrical device be at least 36" away
Article 100 defines a device as ( a unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.)
I wouldn't call it a device but as far as code is concerned it seems like it says it is ?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Gas company likely is not using NEC as a reference and you will have to get definition of what they are calling an electrical device from them.
 

eprice

Senior Member
Location
Utah
There is a house with a pvc jbox feeding a generator that is 24" away from gas meter.
The local gas company requires that any electrical device be at least 36" away
Article 100 defines a device as ( a unit of an electrical system that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.)
I wouldn't call it a device but as far as code is concerned it seems like it says it is ?

I wouldn't call it a device either. It is pvc, so it can't carry electrical energy. Even if it were metal, the intent is not for it to carry electrical energy. We ground it in case it accidentally does.

But IMO this is all unimportant for your question. It is a gas company rule, not an NEC rule, so it is the gas company's definition of what a device is that matters.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I don't suppose you considered visiting their web site and actually looking at their standards?

What they typically want is 36" -measured in any direction, even at an angle- from anything that can make a spark (like a circuit breaker when it operates) and the vent on the regulator next to the meter.

For example, the artwork on page 4 of this attachment shows the requirements of one PoCo: https://www.nvenergy.com/business/n...ectric_standards/images/SECTION_7/OS0001U.pdf
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't suppose you considered visiting their web site and actually looking at their standards?

What they typically want is 36" -measured in any direction, even at an angle- from anything that can make a spark (like a circuit breaker when it operates) and the vent on the regulator next to the meter.

For example, the artwork on page 4 of this attachment shows the requirements of one PoCo: https://www.nvenergy.com/business/n...ectric_standards/images/SECTION_7/OS0001U.pdf

It is Gas co he says that wants the "device" relocated.

They may or may not have a good reason, what is questioned is what is a "device". Since it is the gas co. calling it a "device" the NEC definition of "device" does not matter as gas co probably does not even use NEC at all. Whatever they define "device" as for the application is what matters, they can refuse to turn their service on if their conditions are not met, that is what matters.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
@Steve, code does not define a JB a device.
I believe the utility has the right to set their standards, but it should be obvious they would need to define any words they present inside their utility standards—if the word(s) isn't in agreement with the definitions under any specific trade or standard terminology.
 
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Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I don't suppose you considered visiting their web site and actually looking at their standards?

What they typically want is 36" -measured in any direction, even at an angle- from anything that can make a spark (like a circuit breaker when it operates) and the vent on the regulator next to the meter.

For example, the artwork on page 4 of this attachment shows the requirements of one PoCo: https://www.nvenergy.com/business/n...ectric_standards/images/SECTION_7/OS0001U.pdf

I have visited it and even called them and am waiting for a call back. This is a job I am inspecting and electrician installed next to an existing meter. I personally don't see a problem with this but as another has posted it's not what the NEC defines it as but what the gas co defines what a device is. I will let you know there ruling!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
@Steve, code does not define a JB a device.
I believe the utility has the right to set their standards, but it should be obvious they would need to define any words they present inside their utility standards?if the word(s) isn't in agreement with the definitions under any specific trade or standard terminology.

The people using the term are not in the electrical field, why would you expect them to use a term as it is defined in an electrical code?

I have visited it and even called them and am waiting for a call back. This is a job I am inspecting and electrician installed next to an existing meter. I personally don't see a problem with this but as another has posted it's not what the NEC defines it as but what the gas co defines what a device is. I will let you know there ruling!

If you are an electrical inspector and have no violations of electrical codes I don't see it is your problem. Reinspecting if the electrical equipment does eventually get changed because of this is your business.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Well, those were some very nice points .... noting that, as an AHJ, the gas company simply need not hook up the gas if they're not happy, that the NEC doesn't apply to them, etc.

Which is why I pointed everyone to the standards of the utility!

OK, my error .... the example I posted was from an area where the gas company and the electric company were the same company. So, it's possible that some folks thought I was only referencing the electrical standards .... which would have been a misunderstanding.

"I went out and looked at it" doesn't count for much. What IS effective is taking a picture of the installation, printing out a copy of the relevant page from the gas company's standard, then going to the gas company and asking them "what's wrong with this install?"

Their standards ought to tell you what they require. For example, there might be a desired (lesser) clearance between the gas meter and any other conduit or boxes. Yet, it's pure silliness to not look at their specific rules before forming an opinion.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
The people using the term are not in the electrical field, why would you expect them to use a term as it is defined in an electrical code?
Re-read, as you aren?t getting what I wrote.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
@Steve, code does not define a JB a device.
I believe the utility has the right to set their standards, but it should be obvious they would need to define any words they present inside their utility standards?if the word(s) isn't in agreement with the definitions under any specific trade or standard terminology.

Re-read, as you aren?t getting what I wrote.

I think I get it very well. You mention that code (NEC I assume) does not define a JB as a device. I get that and agree with that when talking NEC.

But it is the gas company is rejecting the JB and not someone in the electrical trade, and they can call it whatever they want as they are not using the NEC as the standard to condemn the installation. All they see is electrical equipment and that it is within their set boundaries where they want no electrical at all is what is likely happening.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
But it is the gas company is rejecting the JB and not someone in the electrical trade, and they can call it whatever they want as they are not using the NEC as the standard to condemn the installation. All they see is electrical equipment and that it is within their set boundaries where they want no electrical at all is what is likely happening.
You still didn’t get it. I was saying they can take a word and redefine it—as long as the word is clearly defined to others. Note: Legally they do not have a base if they can’t clearly present a definition for any word they modified to suit their business.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You still didn?t get it. I was saying they can take a word and redefine it?as long as the word is clearly defined to others. Note: Legally they do not have a base if they can?t clearly present a definition for any word they modified to suit their business.

Why do you think someone redefined a word? The NEC redefines the word "device" to tell us what it means when used in the NEC, not to tell us what it means when used outside the NEC. When any publication has a definitions section or a glossary it is for defining words as they are used in that publication and not necessarily general defintions of the word as used in general language.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
Exactly!!!
Obviously a word can have more than one meaning, this is why a company or person would need to clearly define what they mean. An example is the word “device” in the NEC. They defined it, so it can have meaning—giving it a specific purpose (redefined to have meaning).
Device (from dictionary): a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, esp. a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment<<<<<<<Now if a company plans to use the word “device", then they would need to clearly define (Give Purpose) to it’s meaning, or we can assume it means what we want it to mean.
 
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resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
To be honest, it sounds like you are saying the same>>> i?m just saying it better!!:lol: No need to keep this going, as it?s not helping anyone. I?m done!!!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Exactly!!!
Obviously a word can have more than one meaning, this is why a company or person would need to clearly define what they mean. An example is the word ?device? in the NEC. They defined it, so it can have meaning?giving it a specific purpose (redefined to have meaning).
Device (from dictionary): a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, esp. a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment<<<<<<<Now if a company plans to use the word ?device", then they would need to clearly define (Give Purpose) to it?s meaning, or we can assume it means what we want it to mean.

To be honest, it sounds like you are saying the same>>> i?m just saying it better!!:lol: No need to keep this going, as it?s not helping anyone. I?m done!!!

We are saying same thing, sort of. What I have been trying to get across is why would you expect a gas man to use a word according to how it is defined by the NEC? Using terms from gas codes I would expect. If the word "device" is defined in gas code it is probably not same as it is in NEC. I would never even give it any thought coming from any non electrical professional that they would use any word according to any NEC definitions.
 
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