Breaker lifespan??

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Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
FPE equipment was notorious for it's tendency to start fires. The issues were just as related to the bus bars as the breakers themselves, so even if you did replace the breakers, you have only addressed half of the potential dangers. As was said, just replace the entire panel with something new, forget patching together the old "Fire Probability Enhancer" devices.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I was asked by a customer with an old Federal Panel if it was worth changing the old black breakers for new ones.... any safety issues with old breakers?

Have you checked what the replacements will cost? Especially if you need any GFCI's or larger than 60amp 2 pole breakers? We will not even get into potential AFCI requirements at this point.

If not do that and get back with us with your decision.
 

garbo

Senior Member
FPE Breakers

FPE Breakers

FPE equipment was notorious for it's tendency to start fires. The issues were just as related to the bus bars as the breakers themselves, so even if you did replace the breakers, you have only addressed half of the potential dangers. As was said, just replace the entire panel with something new, forget patching together the old "Fire Probability Enhancer" devices.

Great reply FPE are right up there with Zinco breakers. I helped my dad change out FPE & Zinco panels in the 1960's that failed in less than 10 years. garbo
 

garbo

Senior Member
I was asked by a customer with an old Federal Panel if it was worth changing the old black breakers for new ones.... any safety issues with old breakers?

Hope you have a lot of insurnce. Tell the customer that he is throwing good money after bad. Both of you would be safer to go with a new panel and breakers by another company.Remenber reading about 10 years ago that one of the fly by night breaker manufacturing company lost their UL approval due to their lying about the number of their breakers that failed in house testing. At a recent IAEI class one of the speakers said that some made in China boot leg breakers looked so good on the outside that the manufacture could not tell until they took the boot leg breakers apart. The boot leg brekers even had the hologram sticker dead on. garbo
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hope you have a lot of insurnce. Tell the customer that he is throwing good money after bad. Both of you would be safer to go with a new panel and breakers by another company.Remenber reading about 10 years ago that one of the fly by night breaker manufacturing company lost their UL approval due to their lying about the number of their breakers that failed in house testing. At a recent IAEI class one of the speakers said that some made in China boot leg breakers looked so good on the outside that the manufacture could not tell until they took the boot leg breakers apart. The boot leg brekers even had the hologram sticker dead on. garbo

The boot leg breakers you are talking about is an entirely different issue from the debate over whether or not the original FPE breakers were any good. These boot leg breakers were look alikes for mainstream units still made today like Square D, Cutler Hammer, GE, Siemens. Buying them from a supplier that is reputable and you know buys them directly from respective manufacturers should keep you from getting a counterfiet breaker.
 

powerplay

Senior Member
Have you checked what the replacements will cost? Especially if you need any GFCI's or larger than 60amp 2 pole breakers? We will not even get into potential AFCI requirements at this point.


He was more concerned about updating the home to match his renovation. The mix of old solid black and grey breakers with black handles he thought was worn out through time, and also wanting to update it to look new. I had told him the panel cover would still look old. No specialty breakers, but I guess it would look funny if we updated breakers and an issue occurred after spending a couple hundred bucks.
 

powerplay

Senior Member
FPE equipment was notorious for it's tendency to start fires. The issues were just as related to the bus bars as the breakers themselves, so even if you did replace the breakers, you have only addressed half of the potential dangers. As was said, just replace the entire panel with something new, forget patching together the old "Fire Probability Enhancer" devices.

I had heard that they do not trip easily. Is the problem with bus bars overheating an issue with the detiriorating insulation on bus?...or due to trip response time ?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
He was more concerned about updating the home to match his renovation. The mix of old solid black and grey breakers with black handles he thought was worn out through time, and also wanting to update it to look new. I had told him the panel cover would still look old. No specialty breakers, but I guess it would look funny if we updated breakers and an issue occurred after spending a couple hundred bucks.

Couple hundred bucks might only replace 4 or 5 single pole breakers or only 1 or 2 double pole breakers.


I had heard that they do not trip easily. Is the problem with bus bars overheating an issue with the detiriorating insulation on bus?...or due to trip response time ?

The ones that have problems supposedly do not trip period.
 

jumper

Senior Member
I have some really nice burn marks from a FPE panel. Friend asked me to see why granny's dryer did not work right. Open panel, started looking, touched 30 amp 2p, and fire shot out. Breaker had a hole in the side the size of a quarter.

I replaced the panel for free as granny was poor. It cost me a days vacation and $200, but I was happy, warm and fuzzy knowing I did it. That is the only FPE I ever dealt with.
 

powerplay

Senior Member
Couple hundred bucks might only replace 4 or 5 single pole breakers or only 1 or 2 double pole breakers.




The ones that have problems supposedly do not trip period.

The FPE breakers in this residential application are "NC" types that are about $10 bucks at Home Depot, not the "NA" Commercial ones that are more expensive.


Is it the old black handle ones that are having issues with not tripping?? ...are the newer color coded ones an issue also?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The FPE breakers in this residential application are "NC" types that are about $10 bucks at Home Depot, not the "NA" Commercial ones that are more expensive.


Is it the old black handle ones that are having issues with not tripping?? ...are the newer color coded ones an issue also?

Can't say I know what is currently available, probably have not purchased a FPE replacement for at least 10 years and IIRC it was at least in the $25 range for single pole breaker and $50 or even $60 for double pole rated between 15 and 60 amps. Higher than 60 amps would have been even more.

Similar pricing for other obsolete units like pushmatic or zinsco.
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
Federal Pathetic Electric

Federal Pathetic Electric

I dug this up from an earlier post you can copy and paste:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/FPEWarning.jpg

I recall seeing a warning letter put out by FPE (by the insistance of their lawyers, no doubt) in the late 70's early 80's stating the same thing as the above label, not to reset a tripped molded case breaker with specific frame types. These were large industrial panels in TELCO central offices
with MCBs in the 100-800A range. I tried searching but could not find the letter (maybe someone can help.)
I remember the time when (working for a testing co) I was racking out a 4000A 480V FPE air frame main breaker from a switchboard with xfmr energized on line side. No PPE back then!! All of a sudden while racking we heard a loud "Clunk", we all looked at each other.....WTF!! :eek:
When we got the breaker out we found that the line side phase B Stab (looks like a heavy copper pipe) fell off the back of the breaker (broken weld.) :jawdrop:This is a pole piece that engages the stationary fingers. Had it gone phase to phase on the line side, I would not be telling this story......yeah..!
ask me what I think of FPE...!!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I dug this up from an earlier post you can copy and paste:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/chris_kennedy/FPEWarning.jpg

I recall seeing a warning letter put out by FPE (by the insistance of their lawyers, no doubt) in the late 70's early 80's stating the same thing as the above label, not to reset a tripped molded case breaker with specific frame types. These were large industrial panels in TELCO central offices
with MCBs in the 100-800A range. I tried searching but could not find the letter (maybe someone can help.)
I remember the time when (working for a testing co) I was racking out a 4000A 480V FPE air frame main breaker from a switchboard with xfmr energized on line side. No PPE back then!! All of a sudden while racking we heard a loud "Clunk", we all looked at each other.....WTF!! :eek:
When we got the breaker out we found that the line side phase B Stab (looks like a heavy copper pipe) fell off the back of the breaker (broken weld.) :jawdrop:This is a pole piece that engages the stationary fingers. Had it gone phase to phase on the line side, I would not be telling this story......yeah..!
ask me what I think of FPE...!!

I can't believe that today anyone would send such a label out as a remedy to a problem. Consumer product safety commission may not even allow it. Today it would be a complete recall with removal of defective equipment and replacement parts sent out. Some things they may send out additional parts to fix a problem but a smaller frame breaker would be something that just gets replaced.

How many people besides electrical workers do you suppose ever read these labels and actually considered what it said?
 
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