"Dry Cabin"

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iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
You can blame charlie b for me dredging this up:

It concerns the definition of "dwelling unit". I don't do much with residential, so I don't know what is the norm. Consider this just a curiosity question.

I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs.

Yes there are plenty near where I live. One does not have to get very far from town. There are plenty of reasons why - but that isn't the question.

Qs: In the opinion of the responders:
1. Does the NEC considered a "dry cabin" is a "dwelling unit"? And, why do you think that?

2. How do you think the AHJ/inspectors in your area would respond? To be fair, you would have to pick an area where there is no easy access to commercial power or supplied pressure water, an area where septic systems are okay.

ice
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I do not think you can build a dwelling unit around here unless water, sewer and electricity is installed. We had someone who tried to bring in a rustic cabin in the back yard of a friends home. His intentions were to live there but they would not allow it without the proper facilities.

I think each situation is unique and at this point the AHJ will probably have to make some judgement calls.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I do not think you can build a dwelling unit around here unless water, sewer and electricity is installed. ...
Yes, most populated areas has these types of restrictions. Which is why I narrowed the question to include areas where:
there is no easy access to commercial power or supplied pressure water, an area where septic systems are okay.
If you live in the city and have pretty much always lived in the city, you have to think outside of your box (or cage as the case may be:weeping:)

... I think each situation is unique and at this point the AHJ will probably have to make some judgement calls.
Are you saying the code definition is not clear on this area?

or

Th AHJ will enforce restrictions by fiat (either no applicable law, or ignore the applicable law)

ice
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
You can blame charlie b for me dredging this up:
OK, I'll take the blame. :ashamed: But I'll not let this new question be added to an old thread that has a totally different topic. So I moved the discussion to a thread of its own.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
A friend has a cabin near a small lake about two hours' drive from Seattle. I stayed overnight there once. It matches your description of a "dry cabin." I would say that it falls short of the NEC definition of dwelling unit, in that I do not consider an outhouse to be a permanent provision for sanitation. The outhouse is not in house, so it's not part of the unit, so you don't have a dwelling unit.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I think each situation is unique and at this point the AHJ will probably have to make some judgement calls.
Are you saying the code definition is not clear on this area?
or
The AHJ will enforce restrictions by fiat (either no applicable law, or ignore the applicable law)?
My guess is that Dennis was talking about the authority who has jurisdiction over the building codes, not the electrical codes. I certainly have no idea how much flexibility the building codes allow for buildings without services.
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
You can blame charlie b for me dredging this up:

It concerns the definition of "dwelling unit". I don't do much with residential, so I don't know what is the norm. Consider this just a curiosity question.

I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs.

Yes there are plenty near where I live. One does not have to get very far from town. There are plenty of reasons why - but that isn't the question.

Qs: In the opinion of the responders:
1. Does the NEC considered a "dry cabin" is a "dwelling unit"? And, why do you think that?

2. How do you think the AHJ/inspectors in your area would respond? To be fair, you would have to pick an area where there is no easy access to commercial power or supplied pressure water, an area where septic systems are okay.

ice

International Residential code would label this as habitable space; A space in a building for living, sleeping, eating, or cooking.

It would not be listed as a dwelling unit: A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping,eating,cooking and sanitation.

The sanitation is what is missing and that is where the health department requirements need to be met.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
Cooking?

Cooking?

An outhouse can be pretty permanent, especially when made of brick.

No mention of permanent cooking facilities, which I would assume to be a cook stove burning oil, gas, wood, or coal. I don't believe a solar powered microwave would count.

Are motel rooms w/microwaves dwelling units.

There are some oldsters that don't allow toilets in their house: "Why would I want to cook and eat in a building I go to the bathroom in?"
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
An outhouse can be pretty permanent, especially when made of brick.

No mention of permanent cooking facilities, which I would assume to be a cook stove burning oil, gas, wood, or coal. I don't believe a solar powered microwave would count.

Are motel rooms w/microwaves dwelling units.

There are some oldsters that don't allow toilets in their house: "Why would I want to cook and eat i
in a building I go to the bathroom in?"

A motel room with a microwave is listed as a "Sleeping Unit" If it contained a kitchen it would be listed as a "Dwelling unit"
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
The key is "permanent provisions." I understand that to mean 'permanant provisions that are part of the structure.'

Codes are about buildings, not general areas. A separate outhouse isn't part of the structure. A detached cookhouse isn't part of the structure.

Therefore, none of the above buildings is considered a 'dwelling unit' by the NEC.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
No mention of permanent cooking facilities, which I would assume to be a cook stove burning oil, gas, wood, or coal. I don't believe a solar powered microwave would count. ...
Electricity with no water is common. Sometimes one can get electric utility service for a few $k and plenty have generation, and plenty more are gas and kerosene lights (these don't count - no electricity, no question). But a well costs $10k to $40k.

Heat is often wood or drip oil stove (or both). Toyo kerosene stoves are really nice.

Almost all have a space for food prep. With no pressure water, kitchen area sink often drains to a 5 gal bucket. Cook stoves are usually propane. Solar is pretty useless north of 65 latitude.

Back to the outhouse: I have a remote access cabin. I just dug a new outhouse. It is 4' x 4', shed roof, on treated wood timbers, 3' x 3' x 3". At our rate of use it is likely good for 40+ years. So it is pretty permanent. For a continuously occupied cabin, it probably would be a bit deeper and - I'm guessing, good for 10 years. Still pretty permanent.

ice
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Back to the outhouse: I have a remote access cabin. I just dug a new outhouse. It is 4' x 4', shed roof, on treated wood timbers, 3' x 3' x 3". At our rate of use it is likely good for 40+ years. So it is pretty permanent.
So if you remodel that outhouse to give it a sleeping area, a living area, and a kitchen, then the outhouse can be classified as a dwelling unit. In the mean time, the cabin does not have any provisions for sanitation, temporary or permanent. There are facilities nearby, but not in the cabin. Therefore, the cabin is not a dwelling unit.

Take another look at the article 100 definition of "dwelling unit." It begins with the phrase, "a single unit." If the sanitation facilities are in a different structure, you don't have "a single unit."

Q.E.D.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
This is the first step.

SECTION 105 APPROVALS

105.1 Required.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move or change the occupancy of a residential building or structure, or portion thereof, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical, plumbing system, other residential building service equipment, or piping system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required approval.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I do not think you can build a dwelling unit around here unless water, sewer and electricity is installed. We had someone who tried to bring in a rustic cabin in the back yard of a friends home. His intentions were to live there but they would not allow it without the proper facilities.

I think each situation is unique and at this point the AHJ will probably have to make some judgement calls.
We have Amish families occasionally building homes around here, none of them have any of those "luxuries", but then there is nobody enforcing any building codes and making them put those items in either. Electrical is inspected by the state, but if there is no intention of putting in electrical, no electrical permit is ever filed, and there will be no inspection either.

What do you suppose your AHJ would do if in that situation?
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
We have Amish families occasionally building homes around here, none of them have any of those "luxuries", but then there is nobody enforcing any building codes and making them put those items in either. Electrical is inspected by the state, but if there is no intention of putting in electrical, no electrical permit is ever filed, and there will be no inspection either.

What do you suppose your AHJ would do if in that situation?

I know some cities would take the hard line on requirements. Rural they would probably let it slide.

NOW as to what about "if someone needs electric down the road?" Well, they are required to get permits.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know some cities would take the hard line on requirements. Rural they would probably let it slide.

NOW as to what about "if someone needs electric down the road?" Well, they are required to get permits.

I believe there are Amish colonies in Ohio, not sure if any are near you. The ones around here are outside of cities and villages. They have moved into existing homes and had electricity disconnected also. If power is ever desired in these homes someday a permit will be required before POCO will energize the service. These people will not subscribe to utility power, but they will use portable generators and power tools:?
 
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