Replacing Old Swimming Pool Motor Breakers

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T-Wragg

Senior Member
Location
Paradise, California, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I am working on a permanently installed pool that was installed before the GFCI requirement for motor branch circuits was required. I want to replace the breakers for the pool equipment motors. I am in California, under the 2008 NEC. that states under 680.22 (B) that pool motor branch circuits must be GFCI protected.
On this existing installation, that was code compliant when installed, can I replace the old breakers with ones that are non-GFCI or am I required to replace them with GFCI breakers because that is what is required today. Thank You, Trent.
 
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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I am working on a permanently installed pool that was installed before the GFCI requirement for motor branch circuits was required. I want to replace the breakers for the pool equipment motors. I am in California, under the 2008 NEC. that states under 680.22 (B) that pool motor branch circuits must be GFCI protected.
On this existing installation, that was code compliant when installed, can I replace the old breakers with ones that are non-GFCI or am I required to replace them with GFCI breakers because that is what is required today. Thank You, Trent.

As a former appications engineer I am so used to addressing appications questions from those who pose their question in a way to get an answer that they want to hear.
What is the reason for the question?
Is it the cost that you are concerned about? Are you bidding the job and a concerned that your competitor will not include the GFCI protection, apples to apples? Or did you quote the job and have simply overlooked the GFCI and are trying to find a way around having to supply it to avoid eating the extra cost?
If I were the installing electrician there would be not question about my installing GFCI protection. Quibling over the additional cost of a GFCI breaker and the potentional of being liable for a death is not worth it. I would definitely be discussing this with the owner.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
I'm not so sure that replacing a breaker requires upgrading to the current code (e.g. changing out a bedroom breaker before AFCI's were required may not force an upgrade to the AFCI variant, so a similar thought process for pool pumps). But this is probably only a question your local permitting board could answer.

If that does trigger a permit and/or GFCI requirement, then one solution to consider is adding a subpanel protected by a 50A GFCI breaker (assuming 50A is large enough to cover all the motors). In that GFCI protected subpanel, put all your pool motor branch circuits. I don't think the code requires branch circuit GFCI protection for motors (but does for pool lights), so a GFCI feeder approach should be legal.

A 50A GFCI breaker can generally be bought more cheaply than others because they commonly come bundled in a "spa disconnect" package. Plus, you'll only need one to protect multiple pump circuits. But a fault on one pump will shut all the pumps down which could be a troubleshooting pain (but a safety plus).
 

T-Wragg

Senior Member
Location
Paradise, California, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The reason for posting the question? The installation was code complient when the pool equipment was installed. It has also been considered safe to have non-GFCI protection on pool motors for the next 10 1/2 code cycles (i.e. 32 years). In California it was consdered safe untill December 31, 2010. The next day on January 1, 2012 it is no longer considered safe. Failed parts of electrical systems are allowed to be serviced and replaced. The AHJ in my area said it would be ok to just replace the breaker. If any of the equipment or remodel of any type is done one the pool everything has to be brought up yo the current code.


"As a former appications engineer I am so used to addressing appications questions from those who pose their question in a way to get an answer that they want to hear.
What is the reason for the question?
Is it the cost that you are concerned about? Are you bidding the job and a concerned that your competitor will not include the GFCI protection, apples to apples? Or did you quote the job and have simply overlooked the GFCI and are trying to find a way around having to supply it to avoid eating the extra cost?
If I were the installing electrician there would be not question about my installing GFCI protection. Quibling over the additional cost of a GFCI breaker and the potentional of being liable for a death is not worth it. I would definitely be discussing this with the owner." Posted by templdl

templdl, I resent the condesending tone of your responce. Are you unable to think that someone might be trying to do the right thing in a given situation. I have been an electrician for 22 years. You are not talking to a beginner. I post here because I respect the answers of the professionals that veiw this forun. I posted the question the way I did so that anyone reading my question would have all the information that the needed to answer it properly. I quess in your case it was posted in a way that you could answer it in a way to try and pump your own ego at someone else's expense. If that's your reason for posting your answers I hardly feel your answers are useful to anyone.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If that's your reason for posting your answers I hardly feel your answers are useful to anyone.


I guess I may have missed the fact in your OP that you have '22 years of expreience' and, as such, 'are not a beginner' and are "trying to do the right thing." and as such this is not a question being asked by an electrician with much less experience.
Then, with the experience that you have, why would it appear that you are asking if you need to provide GFCI protection? Again, at this rick of offending you as one of the other posters electricguy61 stated "Ask yourself: would I want my family swimming in an old pool w/ old equipment that wasn't GFI/GFCI protected?" Which I think is an excellent answer.

I would consider this a non-issue and do the right thing and supply GFCI protection regardless calling it a day.

I may have not have posed my question back to you as tactfully as I could have as I certainly didn't anticipate that you would be offended and it wasn?t never my intent to attack your ego by asking some pointed questions in the process of trying to sort out the real reason for the inquiry. It just didn't make sense to me from my perspective. My questions were directed to the possible reasons as to why you were looking for a way to justify not providing GFCI protection. Your inquiry stated "On this existing installation, that was code compliant when installed, can I replace the old breakers with ones that are non-GFCI or am I required to replace them with GFCI breakers because that is what is required today." Why wouldn't you provide GFCI protection regardless in this application? If you did privide a GFCI would the additional cost be coming out of your pocket? If not it should be a non-issue to provide the GFCI protection wouldn't it?
I am really am not interested in your feelings but I am only interested in assuring that I am able to provide an accurate aswer to your inquiry as I would interprete it to prevent placing your customer?s safety at risk and you are not held liable. People do like to take you to court and take as much money as they can from you.
Again, please take electricguy61?s advice and forget about all of this, bit the bullet and just supply the GFCI protection.

In any event, please accept my sincere apology if I offended you as that wasn?t my intent by any means.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I don't have a 2008 in front of me, but 2011 would not require GFCI in any case if it is not a 15 or 20 amp breaker. Maybe somebody can point out the detail from the 2008 edition.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I don't know whether the same intent applies to breakers, but 406.3(D)(2) requires that if you have to replace a non-GFCI receptacle at a location that requires one, you have to replace it with a GFCI.
If the pool pump motors are cord and plug, why not just change the receptacle to a GFCI receptacle?
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I don't have a 2008 in front of me, but 2011 would not require GFCI in any case if it is not a 15 or 20 amp breaker. Maybe somebody can point out the detail from the 2008 edition.

08 says the same, but I don't see that in the 2011, at least not in 680.22(B). Has it been moved or removed?

Or more simply put, where is it at in the 2011?
 
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T-Wragg

Senior Member
Location
Paradise, California, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
First: templdl, I accept your apology. I'm sorry for being so defensive. I try to do the best I can do.

I posted because I was not sure if I had to change to a GFCI breaker and my customer was curious as to why it was necessary since the other had been fine for the past 22 1/2 years, since the house was built. The panel is a Crouse-Hinds. I think they are listed for Murry, and Cuttler Hammer breakers. The AJH said I can just change the breaker, but tomorrow I will explain to her what the safer option would be. I think I have room in the panel for them. I can make it work. There are two breakers for her pool equipment, one for the motor, and one for a bubbler. I'll let you know.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
680.21(C)

From the 2008:

(B) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump motors
from branch circuits with short-circuit and ground-fault
protection rated 15 or 20 amperes, 125 volt or 240 volt,
single phase, whether by receptacle or direct connection,
shall be provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel.

A little different wording, but basically the same.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
First: templdl, I accept your apology. I'm sorry for being so defensive. I try to do the best I can do.

I posted because I was not sure if I had to change to a GFCI breaker and my customer was curious as to why it was necessary since the other had been fine for the past 22 1/2 years, since the house was built. The panel is a Crouse-Hinds. I think they are listed for Murry, and Cuttler Hammer breakers. The AJH said I can just change the breaker, but tomorrow I will explain to her what the safer option would be. I think I have room in the panel for them. I can make it work. There are two breakers for her pool equipment, one for the motor, and one for a bubbler. I'll let you know.

Great, thanks. Lets kick some butt and keep on going. It will work out just fine for you. Depending upon the access that you have to that neutral bar and the number of line conductors that are probably in the way and depending upon where your installing the breaker messing around trying to get that neutral wire into the hole of the neutral bar may be a pain. Once you have that I think that you are home free as I always install the line and neutral in the breaker first and then snap the breaker into place instead of fighting the exsisting wire in the panel. It took me a few years to figure out that it was the easier way.
I have attache a C-H charge for classified breakers for you to show the AHJ. You may want to keep a few copies in your truck and stick one on the panel. If it's not clear enough I can sent you a copy with more detail. Let me know.
 

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M. D.

Senior Member
The pump is 22 years old??? I'm not sure I bet , but that old gal probably wouldn't get along with the GFCI
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
The pump is 22 years old??? I'm not sure I bet , but that old gal probably wouldn't get along with the GFCI

Good point. It may be pot luck. But then one has to wonder if the GFCI does trip is that an indication of a possible unsafe condition that must be considered not that the motor is necessarily defective.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
What if there is enough leakage from the pump motor or wiring that it trips the GFCI, especially if it is intermittent? Is this minor safety upgrade going to require a pump and wiring replacement as well? Or if it trips do you just install a non-GFCI solution and forget about your good intentions.

Why not add the EP grounding grid as well? That's a safety issue too.

Its entirely possible that there are other newly discovered hazards as well. Should they all be "repaired"?
 

T-Wragg

Senior Member
Location
Paradise, California, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Update.

It is the pool motor starting that is causing the breaker to trip. It worked fine after I replaced the breaker. The homeowner is having her pool man replace the motor. I explained to her our forum discussion on safety and she has agreed to have me install GFCI breakers for the equipment. Thanks for everyone's help.
 
Location
durham,nc
Occupation
Electrical contractor
When I started wiring pools in the late 90's , I wasn't smart enough to look at the code book and just thought that you should put GFCI protection on everything in or on the pool, I was glad to see it become code in the 2000's. I figured I don't pay for the material anyway (my customers do.) Mine were all high end pools 220v pumps, I figure if they could afford the price of the pool they could afford the GFCI's and I could sleep REAL good knowing that they were going to be safe. Just my theory but I would never replace a tripping gfci with a normal breaker to clear a fault , you could use it for testing purpose's
 
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