Buying home, no ground.

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JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
Ok hey guys. Im buying a new home. It is a supposed new renovation. It has a brand new service. The home inspector pointed out that none of the receptacle are showing being grounding according to tester. Inside the panel all the home runs have grounding conductors except for one wire which is an old wire. The kitchen and bathrooms are showing grounding according to tester but the rest of the house does not. We did not open any outlets but on the farthest side of the house from panel there is an unfinished garage with a receptacle box with no coverplate. The receptacle do in fact have a grounding conductor connected to them but the tester shows then not being grounding still. The wires obviously are not that old that are exposed in the garage because of the grounding conductor being present. At this point i am not moving into contract until the problem is fixed and i hear how it was fixed.

My concern is how they will fix this being that there is only romex in the house, so tgey will not be able to pull a ground from the box. I dont know how thwy intend to fix this. I know that you can tap off the neutral with a pigtail and go to the grounding terminal on each receptacle in the house to trick the tester to say it has a ground. Im worried that they might do this because i believe doing it this way is making a dangerous situation worse. I understand that if they say it is fixed, i can easily pull off each cover plate to see, but is there another way to tell if they juat rigged it this way to make it look like it is grounding.

These are 3 prong receptacles by the way. What do you guys think about this? These sellers look pretty shady so i wouldnt put it past them to have their electrician pull something stupid like this. Plus tge fact that the seller happens to be a building inspector lol. Any help, thanks.
 
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Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
My concern is how they will fix this being that there is only romex in the house, so tgey will not be able to pull a ground from the box. I dont know how thwy intend to fix this.

If all but one of the branch circuits are wired with Romex, then an EGC (ground wire) is present to each destination. So that means there are only three possibilities:

1. The EGCs are not connected to the grounding terminal at the panel.

2. The EGCs are not connected at the receptacle.

3. The EGCs are severed somewhere within the walls. Highly unlikely with Romex, but it's possible they made some unapproved splices in the Romex and neglected to also splice the ground wire.

How do you know that all these ungrounded receptacles are not being fed by the "old wire" (whatever that may be... knob & tube?).

I know that you can tap off the neutral with a pigtail and go to the grounding terminal on each receptacle in the house to trick the tester to say it has a ground. Im worried that they might do this because i believe doing it this way is making a dangerous situation worse.

Are you sure you're an electrician? If so, that's the understatement of the year. It would mean that any appliance with a grounded metal case would become electrically energized ("hot" on the outside of the case) as soon as it's turned on.

I don't think a proper 3-light tester would be "fooled" by such a trick. But the bigger question is: knowing what you know now, why would you rely on a simple "tester" to determine if the home is wired correctly?

I understand that if they say it is fixed, i can easily pull off each cover plate to see, but is there another way to tell if they juat rigged it this way to make it look like it is grounding.

I would not rely on a "tester" or a visual examination of the receptacles. All the branch circuit conductors (including EGCs) need to be properly mapped, tested, and checked for continuity, resistance, and correct wiring. Are you sure you're an electrician?

i wouldnt put it past them to have their electrician pull something stupid like this.

If he did, not only would he risk losing his license, but he'd be setting himself for one hellava wrongful death or injury lawsuit. Are you sure he's an electrician?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If all but one of the branch circuits are wired with Romex, then an EGC (ground wire) is present to each destination. So that means there are only three possibilities:

1. The EGCs are not connected to the grounding terminal at the panel.

2. The EGCs are not connected at the receptacle.

3. The EGCs are severed somewhere within the walls. Highly unlikely with Romex, but it's possible they made some unapproved splices in the Romex and neglected to also splice the ground wire.

How do you know that all these ungrounded receptacles are not being fed by the "old wire" (whatever that may be... knob & tube?).



Are you sure you're an electrician? If so, that's the understatement of the year. It would mean that any appliance with a grounded metal case would become electrically energized ("hot" on the outside of the case) as soon as it's turned on.

I don't think a proper 3-light tester would be "fooled" by such a trick. But the bigger question is: knowing what you know now, why would you rely on a simple "tester" to determine if the home is wired correctly?



I would not rely on a "tester" or a visual examination of the receptacles. All the branch circuit conductors (including EGCs) need to be properly mapped, tested, and checked for continuity, resistance, and correct wiring. Are you sure you're an electrician?



If he did, not only would he risk losing his license, but he'd be setting himself for one hellava wrongful death or injury lawsuit. Are you sure he's an electrician?

Why do you think a simple 3 wire tester will not be fooled by that trick? If it sees ~120 from hot to neutral, and ~120 from hot to ground and little or no voltage between neutral and ground it will indicate everything is fine as that is all it is designed to look for. There are many ways to make it read that way most of which may not code compliant.


As far as finding ways to verify they did not bootleg the EGC from the neutral - you could lift neutral conductors at the panel and then test receptacles to see if there is only open neutral conditions - if grounded properly all that will be lost is the neutral, and not neutral and ground. You need to take some caution if there are multiwire branch circuits involved as opening the neutral if there is load is not a good thing on MWBC's

You could also test voltage with a heavy load. If hot to neutral voltage drops the same amount as hot to ground voltage when applying the heavy load - they are probably not isolated from each other at the load end.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Why do you think a simple 3 wire tester will not be fooled by that trick?
I wasn't sure if it would be fooled or not, which is why I said "I think". Had I the time and inclination, I would have run some real tests to try it. But you've convinced me that it probably would be fooled by such a trick.

That said, I think my main point is still valid: why would he trust any simple tester if he suspects the sellers are pulling tricks with the electrical?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Probably does exactly what I mentioned by applying a load and checking voltage to see how voltage drop responds on the EGC vs the neutral conductor.

Not from what I have read.

They just measure the resistance from neutral to ground. A bootleg ground will show a very, very low resistance, real close to 0. A real ground will show the resitance of the conductors from the neutral to the panel and back to the ground.

Intentionally running current through the EGC is not really a good thing to do. For various reasons, safety being just one.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not from what I have read.

They just measure the resistance from neutral to ground. A bootleg ground will show a very, very low resistance, real close to 0. A real ground will show the resitance of the conductors from the neutral to the panel and back to the ground.

Intentionally running current through the EGC is not really a good thing to do. For various reasons, safety being just one.

You could be right on the design of the tester.

I never mentioned putting a load on the EGC, just put a load on the neutral, if the egc is not bootlegged there should be less change (remember there will be drop on the ungrounded also if you load it) on the EGC than there was on the neutral. If the EGC is bootlegged at the receptacle the drop on both will be nearly the same.
 

__dan

Senior Member
Ok hey guys. Im buying a new home. It is a supposed new renovation. It has a brand new service. The home inspector pointed out that none of the receptacle are showing being grounding according to tester. Inside the panel all the home runs have grounding conductors except for one wire which is an old wire. The kitchen and bathrooms are showing grounding according to tester but the rest of the house does not. We did not open any outlets but on the farthest side of the house from panel there is an unfinished garage with a receptacle box with no coverplate. The receptacle do in fact have a grounding conductor connected to them but the tester shows then not being grounding still. The wires obviously are not that old that are exposed in the garage because of the grounding conductor being present. At this point i am not moving into contract until the problem is fixed and i hear how it was fixed.

My concern is how they will fix this being that there is only romex in the house, so tgey will not be able to pull a ground from the box. I dont know how thwy intend to fix this. I know that you can tap off the neutral with a pigtail and go to the grounding terminal on each receptacle in the house to trick the tester to say it has a ground. Im worried that they might do this because i believe doing it this way is making a dangerous situation worse. I understand that if they say it is fixed, i can easily pull off each cover plate to see, but is there another way to tell if they juat rigged it this way to make it look like it is grounding.

These are 3 prong receptacles by the way. What do you guys think about this? These sellers look pretty shady so i wouldnt put it past them to have their electrician pull something stupid like this. Plus tge fact that the seller happens to be a building inspector lol. Any help, thanks.

Go to the local building official and look at the permit record for the house. See if there are permits to cover the work they said was done. If the electrical permit looks in order, get the guys name and give him a call to see if can tell you what he did.

If there is no license on the work, you may consider getting an independent quote to take everything apart, inspect it, permit it, and take a deduct at the closing for the cost of the work (something to think about, ask your lawyer).

If you are an electrician, you should open the panel, open outlets, and trace wiring enough to satisfy your curiosity as to the general quality and workmanship of what was done and why the tester fails the circuit. If not, hire it.

Listen to your gut when it says the sellers are shysters. Your gut may be right.
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
I will see how it goes after the homeowner supposedly fixes the proTblem. He told my inspector he will catch a ground from the sheathing on the wire going to the receptacles......lol.


Is that possible?


Thank you guys, I will take everything you guys said into consideration. There are no multiwire branch circuits so I think I will lift the neutral in the panel to check for only an open neutral in the receptacles.......that is an excellent idea.

And by the way, tapping from neutral to grounding terminal on receptacle, does in fact fool the 3 prong, 3 light tester. I have seen it done.

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate everything you guys said.


Again, the homeowner said to my inspector that he will grab a ground from the sheathing of the wire. Im not sure what kind of wire is there, but I know it is not bx.....so at this point im assuming what he intends to do is not legal? Correct me if im wrong.
 
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jiggawatt79

Member
Location
New Mexico
They allow GFI's to be installed on 2 wire homes here. It gets expensive. They used to allow 2 prong outlets but they don't make a TR 2 prong that I know of.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I will see how it goes after the homeowner supposedly fixes the proTblem. He told my inspector he will catch a ground from the sheathing on the wire going to the receptacles......lol.


Is that possible?


Thank you guys, I will take everything you guys said into consideration. There are no multiwire branch circuits so I think I will lift the neutral in the panel to check for only an open neutral in the receptacles.......that is an excellent idea.

And by the way, tapping from neutral to grounding terminal on receptacle, does in fact fool the 3 prong, 3 light tester. I have seen it done.


Thanks again guys, I really appreciate everything you guys said.

It would fool one of the older testers, but some of the newer ones will show a bootlegged ground.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
They allow GFI's to be installed on 2 wire homes here. It gets expensive. They used to allow 2 prong outlets but they don't make a TR 2 prong that I know of.

NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b) allows:
A non?grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.​


NEC 406.3(D)(3)(c) allows:
A non?grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground fault circuit interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.​


However, I do not believe either of these exceptions are permitted because NEC 406.3(D)(3) states:
Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).​


If the wiring is Romex to the receptacle, then an EGC does exist in the enclosure. I do not believe NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b) and (c) are intended to remedy installations where the EGC exists but is improperly installed.

However, a GFCI can be used per NEC 406.3(D)(3)(b) and (c) on the one "old wire" branch circuit mentioned in the original post (presuming that circuit has no EGC).
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
OK, I want you to repeat this mantra 5000 times, then reconsider your post:

"Sellers lie, Flippers cheat, Realtors are scum, and HI's are little help."

Every one of those groups named above think they're the reincarnation of Blackbeard- and you're an unarmed merchantman.

"Rennovation" means they made it look pretty. Period. You're liable to find extension cords and zip cord inside the walls. The more that was messed with since the house was built, the more was messed up. I'd take a run-down shanty anyday over a flipper's complete remodel. There's just too much kludge to be found when the amateurs and crooks start to play.

Let me use my current project as an example:
Built in 1957, this was before ground wires became commonplace. Yet, every outlet was a 3-prong, and FPE never made GFCI breakers. Guess what I found when I opened the box? Yup, there were only two wires. So much for that 'upgrade.'

They built homes back then with fireblocks in the middle of the wall. So, it's off with the wallboard. Tight attic anyway, you're not going to 'fish' these walls.

Wait a minute .... that's black cloth-covered Romex at each box, yet the panel has white vinyl Romex leaving it. What happened? A visit to the attic revelaes there had once been quite a fire up there .... hmm, I wonder how they made the wiring transitions?

1957 homes didn't have laundry rooms. At some point, one was added to the bathroom. The roofing transition did a fine job of directing rain water INTO the stud bays on one side. The "outside receptacle" was fed by an extension cord. The washer drain had a nice P-trap, then simply dumped the water into the crawl space.

Kitchen has provisions for both an electric and a gas range. That's unusual. Not really surprised to find the electric line shorted and the gas line leaking.

1957 homes did not have air conditioning, and it gets mighty unpleasant here in the summer. Looks like some flrx was run through the crawl space to a very large window unit. Pipe from the meter, flex out the other side.... in between, simple Romex laying in the dirt (and mud) of the crawl space. Oh, and with the addition of the A/C and the dryer, the meter is now tripple-lugged. (At least they used fused disconnects).

We've only had 'fan rated' boxes for the past decade or so; yet ever room has a ceiling fan. Surprise! Professionally installed 3-0's have had no problems holding up ceiling fans over the years. Guess the 'old ways' work. Modern short-cuts do not. Too bad that today's seminar-educated code wankers can't recognize this, and have an attack of the vapors every time they see a metal box anchored to a 2x4.

Do you notice a pattern here? The ONLY areas of this house with problems were the things that the homeowner had worked on! The problems are all with the improvements.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think I would just go through the house, take some notes of what is there (and probably more than just electrical issues the way it sounds) and make an offer low enough to be covered by the cost needed to repair all the problems. If they don't accept it that is too bad. If I wanted the house bad enough it will have a cost, if I don't want or need it bad enough - there are other houses to look at.

This is in a way no different than buying a used car. If it is used you can not expect it to be in like new condition. If it is priced like new then you will expect it to be like new. If it is in obvious need of repairs you expect to have the selling price discounted enough to cover the needed repairs - or are willing to offer more than it may be worth to others just because of something special about it.

Anything used is that way - value is entirely dependent on conditions of the item. Some cars are worth more as scrap metal than they are as a car.
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
OK, I want you to repeat this mantra 5000 times, then reconsider your post:

"Sellers lie, Flippers cheat, Realtors are scum, and HI's are little help."

Every one of those groups named above think they're the reincarnation of Blackbeard- and you're an unarmed merchantman.

"Rennovation" means they made it look pretty. Period. You're liable to find extension cords and zip cord inside the walls. The more that was messed with since the house was built, the more was messed up. I'd take a run-down shanty anyday over a flipper's complete remodel. There's just too much kludge to be found when the amateurs and crooks start to play.

Let me use my current project as an example:
Built in 1957, this was before ground wires became commonplace. Yet, every outlet was a 3-prong, and FPE never made GFCI breakers. Guess what I found when I opened the box? Yup, there were only two wires. So much for that 'upgrade.'

They built homes back then with fireblocks in the middle of the wall. So, it's off with the wallboard. Tight attic anyway, you're not going to 'fish' these walls.

Wait a minute .... that's black cloth-covered Romex at each box, yet the panel has white vinyl Romex leaving it. What happened? A visit to the attic revelaes there had once been quite a fire up there .... hmm, I wonder how they made the wiring transitions?

1957 homes didn't have laundry rooms. At some point, one was added to the bathroom. The roofing transition did a fine job of directing rain water INTO the stud bays on one side. The "outside receptacle" was fed by an extension cord. The washer drain had a nice P-trap, then simply dumped the water into the crawl space.

Kitchen has provisions for both an electric and a gas range. That's unusual. Not really surprised to find the electric line shorted and the gas line leaking.

1957 homes did not have air conditioning, and it gets mighty unpleasant here in the summer. Looks like some flrx was run through the crawl space to a very large window unit. Pipe from the meter, flex out the other side.... in between, simple Romex laying in the dirt (and mud) of the crawl space. Oh, and with the addition of the A/C and the dryer, the meter is now tripple-lugged. (At least they used fused disconnects).

We've only had 'fan rated' boxes for the past decade or so; yet ever room has a ceiling fan. Surprise! Professionally installed 3-0's have had no problems holding up ceiling fans over the years. Guess the 'old ways' work. Modern short-cuts do not. Too bad that today's seminar-educated code wankers can't recognize this, and have an attack of the vapors every time they see a metal box anchored to a 2x4.

Do you notice a pattern here? The ONLY areas of this house with problems were the things that the homeowner had worked on! The problems are all with the improvements.


What is a fire block? Im assuming you are talking about a 2x4 piece of wood going across the bay?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What is a fire block? Im assuming you are talking about a 2x4 piece of wood going across the bay?

Draft stop would be a better term, the piece of wood will only work for so long and it is no longer a fire block.

I find it more common to see diagonal blocks in between the studs on exterior walls especially - these are often called 'storm bracing'. The need for those I believe decreased once it became common to use plywood or other sheet goods for sheathing instead of narrower strips of wood for sheathing. Occasionally you may have seen the sheathing installed diagonally instead of installing the "storm bracing".
 

norcal

Senior Member
OK, I want you to repeat this mantra 5000 times, then reconsider your post:

"Sellers lie, Flippers cheat, Realtors are scum, and HI's are little help."

Every one of those groups named above think they're the reincarnation of Blackbeard- and you're an unarmed merchantman.

"Rennovation" means they made it look pretty. Period. You're liable to find extension cords and zip cord inside the walls. The more that was messed with since the house was built, the more was messed up. I'd take a run-down shanty anyday over a flipper's complete remodel. There's just too much kludge to be found when the amateurs and crooks start to play.

Let me use my current project as an example:
Built in 1957, this was before ground wires became commonplace. Yet, every outlet was a 3-prong, and FPE never made GFCI breakers. Guess what I found when I opened the box? Yup, there were only two wires. So much for that 'upgrade.'

They built homes back then with fireblocks in the middle of the wall. So, it's off with the wallboard. Tight attic anyway, you're not going to 'fish' these walls.

Wait a minute .... that's black cloth-covered Romex at each box, yet the panel has white vinyl Romex leaving it. What happened? A visit to the attic revelaes there had once been quite a fire up there .... hmm, I wonder how they made the wiring transitions?

1957 homes didn't have laundry rooms. At some point, one was added to the bathroom. The roofing transition did a fine job of directing rain water INTO the stud bays on one side. The "outside receptacle" was fed by an extension cord. The washer drain had a nice P-trap, then simply dumped the water into the crawl space.

Kitchen has provisions for both an electric and a gas range. That's unusual. Not really surprised to find the electric line shorted and the gas line leaking.

1957 homes did not have air conditioning, and it gets mighty unpleasant here in the summer. Looks like some flrx was run through the crawl space to a very large window unit. Pipe from the meter, flex out the other side.... in between, simple Romex laying in the dirt (and mud) of the crawl space. Oh, and with the addition of the A/C and the dryer, the meter is now tripple-lugged. (At least they used fused disconnects).

We've only had 'fan rated' boxes for the past decade or so; yet ever room has a ceiling fan. Surprise! Professionally installed 3-0's have had no problems holding up ceiling fans over the years. Guess the 'old ways' work. Modern short-cuts do not. Too bad that today's seminar-educated code wankers can't recognize this, and have an attack of the vapors every time they see a metal box anchored to a 2x4.

Do you notice a pattern here? The ONLY areas of this house with problems were the things that the homeowner had worked on! The problems are all with the improvements.

FPE did make GFCI circuit breakers, they never made AFCI's, same for ITE Pushmatic, & Zinsco/Sylvania. On the subject of ceiling fans, it's always great when you find that tenants put ceiling fans in the bedrooms, only problem* is that the boxes they attached them to were plastic cut-in type held in place w/ a sheet metal bracket secured by a 10-32 screw.

*They also did not ask permission either, so that is not quite the only problem.


Edit: It's always interesting to see a older installation where the work was professional & properly done, and how well it has held up.
 
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