Here we go again, Working Hot

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I know about the exemptions in OSHA that allows a person to work energized circuits. But the mentality I still keep running into (especially with some of the new hired folks) is that they feel since they have always done it (or they grew up working hot), it's not a big issue.

To be honest, in reality at our area the only real reason to work hot is for testing voltage, amp readings or trouble shooting etc... Even though this guy has a 'legal' OSHA justification to work hot (and it's not testing voltage or trouble shooting etc..) because it's an emergency circuit, in reality there really isn't a need for it. Tieing in a breaker hot is not really necessary for this job!

Just because one is not sure what feeds what does not make a justification to look for the oportunity to work hot. Sorry I had to vent! But what can you say nicely to a person that wants to work hot, (they are going to request a hot work permit based on the OSHA exemptions) when you know in reality it's not necessary with proper planning?

Even emergency circuits can be shut down with proper planning!!
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Technically, there really isn't anything that can't be shut down, it just has to be in an orderly fashion, even hospital power is not guaranteed to be up 100%. There is always redundancy on things that are super critical. Just because its inconvenient, doesn't mean it can't be shut off.
 

james_mcquade

Senior Member
Have your friend look up arc flash incidents.
that may help change his mind.
we had an incident while they worked inside the panel after it was opened
and they were closing the panel. there was no need to work on it hot.
they were always used to working on things hot.

they got a week off without pay.
regards,
james
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
Somewhere here at Mike Holt their was in the past a You Tube testimony about Arc Flash. It was not pretty, a real eye opener.

But heck if I know how to search for it.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I would suggest this.

Where there is a chance of an arc flash, it is probably best to avoid working hot on these circuits. You can do an enormous amount of damage not only to yourself but to the systems being worked on as well.

Having said that, there are a lot of cases where the risk of an arc flash incident is remote to nil. The rules ought to be changed to reflect that and allow hot work in those cases.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I would suggest this.

Where there is a chance of an arc flash, it is probably best to avoid working hot on these circuits. You can do an enormous amount of damage not only to yourself but to the systems being worked on as well.

Having said that, there are a lot of cases where the risk of an arc flash incident is remote to nil. The rules ought to be changed to reflect that and allow hot work in those cases.

Arc Flash is not the only hazard though, there is also the shock and electrocution hazards too. Sure, you can insulate yourself and all, but the tools specifically state "for protection from ACCIDENTAL contact only". It is all written by lawyers anyway, and it is up to you to prove it was safe to do if an accident happens, and when an accident does happens, it kinda throws out the window "but it's safe to do" no matter how boneheaded a move the person did. I know your pain, because they do get kinda ridiculous on some things. If you go by the book, you can't change fuses in a disconnect, even though it is turned off. But because there is still voltage at the line side terminals of the switch, it's considered live work.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
If you go by the book, you can't change fuses in a disconnect, even though it is turned off. But because there is still voltage at the line side terminals of the switch, it's considered live work.
There is no "book" that says this.

Your company's Electrical Safe Work Practices may have restrictions, but NFPA70E does not get into this type of detail.
Yes, the de-energized fuses are probably within the arc flash protection boundary, but it is unlikely they are within the restrictive and prohibited approach distances, even at 480V.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems

Distance is not provided in that article. So, how exposed is 'exposed to'?
1910.333(b)(1) simply says: "...near enough to them [the hazards] to expose the employee...".

In NFPA70E, being within the 'restricted approach boundary' is considered working on the energized parts.
As I mentioned earlier, that distance is relatively small at 480V, but it is within other boundaries so some PPE will most likely be required.
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
Man, I really hate working hot especially on 460 or 480. It's not comfortable but I do wear my 1000V gloves. I come from a manufacturing background and lots of times things have been worked over the years and it is tough to figure what is wired to what. And then it can be tough to schedule shutdowns. I recently had a small arc flash incident where I was asked to put plastic shields over all exposed 460V terminals in control panels. I was drilling into an aluminum back-plane in a panel, the spiral chip off the drill bit fell into the disconnect and flash banged on me. So, I was at risk, and since the main popped anyhow, I risked the process that was controlled by the panel. Far better to schedule work with the power off but not always possible. And for troubleshooting some things have to be hot.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Man, I really hate working hot especially on 460 or 480. It's not comfortable but I do wear my 1000V gloves. I come from a manufacturing background and lots of times things have been worked over the years and it is tough to figure what is wired to what. And then it can be tough to schedule shutdowns. I recently had a small arc flash incident where I was asked to put plastic shields over all exposed 460V terminals in control panels. I was drilling into an aluminum back-plane in a panel, the spiral chip off the drill bit fell into the disconnect and flash banged on me. So, I was at risk, and since the main popped anyhow, I risked the process that was controlled by the panel. Far better to schedule work with the power off but not always possible. And for troubleshooting some things have to be hot.

Testing and troubleshooting is allowed to be done hot providing the proper protection is worn, we bought over a quarter of a million dollars worth of circuit tracers just so our guys can find the circuits and turn them off, not many companies go to this length to help protect their employees.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Distance is not provided in that article. So, how exposed is 'exposed to'?
1910.333(b)(1) simply says: "...near enough to them [the hazards] to expose the employee...".

In NFPA70E, being within the 'restricted approach boundary' is considered working on the energized parts.
As I mentioned earlier, that distance is relatively small at 480V, but it is within other boundaries so some PPE will most likely be required.

If I can touch a live electrical part, as I could while changing a fuse in most disconnect switches in my opionion I would be in violation of the section I posted.
 

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Circuit Tracers

Circuit Tracers

Testing and troubleshooting is allowed to be done hot providing the proper protection is worn, we bought over a quarter of a million dollars worth of circuit tracers just so our guys can find the circuits and turn them off, not many companies go to this length to help protect their employees.

I just watched "Donnie's Accident" and am truly concerned about my safety now. Can you please recommend some tools for tracing circuits? My company is just a one man operation and my annual sales are half of what you spent on your tracers however safety comes at a price.

Thank you to all for promoting safety on this forum.
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
Testing and troubleshooting is allowed to be done hot providing the proper protection is worn, we bought over a quarter of a million dollars worth of circuit tracers just so our guys can find the circuits and turn them off, not many companies go to this length to help protect their employees.

I watched the Donnies accident video. It's an eye opener. Our engineers have a tracer that clips on a wire like an amp clamp and will put an audio tone into the line. Then they can pick it up on the other end. Is this what you are referring to? In any case I have to look into this. I also need to order a face shield and a couple of flame proof work shirts.

I am thinking that the reason the arc flash was so bad on the Donnie incident would be because there wasn't much protection on the circuit at that level. So it would be able to continuously arc without blowing a breaker etc? Is that correct? I was lucky, in my incident the small aluminum shaving vaporized so it was a quick flash and a loud bang but no damage to myself. It also tripped the main circuit breaker for the panel. I was a dumbass to be drilling into a live panel so close to the disconnect, it could have been a lot worse.

Thanks for posting about the hot work.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know about the exemptions in OSHA that allows a person to work energized circuits. But the mentality I still keep running into (especially with some of the new hired folks) is that they feel since they have always done it (or they grew up working hot), it's not a big issue.

To be honest, in reality at our area the only real reason to work hot is for testing voltage, amp readings or trouble shooting etc... Even though this guy has a 'legal' OSHA justification to work hot (and it's not testing voltage or trouble shooting etc..) because it's an emergency circuit, in reality there really isn't a need for it. Tieing in a breaker hot is not really necessary for this job!

Just because one is not sure what feeds what does not make a justification to look for the oportunity to work hot. Sorry I had to vent! But what can you say nicely to a person that wants to work hot, (they are going to request a hot work permit based on the OSHA exemptions) when you know in reality it's not necessary with proper planning?

Even emergency circuits can be shut down with proper planning!!

The people granting the "hot work" permit maybe are the ones that need to change practices, and need to justify what is worth the risk of injury and what is necessary for continued operations. If the company truly cares about the welfare of employees, they will be strict with issuing hot work permits.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I watched the Donnies accident video. It's an eye opener. Our engineers have a tracer that clips on a wire like an amp clamp and will put an audio tone into the line. Then they can pick it up on the other end. Is this what you are referring to? In any case I have to look into this. I also need to order a face shield and a couple of flame proof work shirts.

I am thinking that the reason the arc flash was so bad on the Donnie incident would be because there wasn't much protection on the circuit at that level. So it would be able to continuously arc without blowing a breaker etc? Is that correct? I was lucky, in my incident the small aluminum shaving vaporized so it was a quick flash and a loud bang but no damage to myself. It also tripped the main circuit breaker for the panel. I was a dumbass to be drilling into a live panel so close to the disconnect, it could have been a lot worse.

Thanks for posting about the hot work.

True that more incident energy will exist at services and feeders than at the end of a branch circuit. You could also run into places where more incident energy exists at a branch circuit than exists at a service at some other installation. So each segment of each installation has its own values.

The risk of shock or electrocution, remains nearly the same at any point where conductors are exposed
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
If I can touch a live electrical part, as I could while changing a fuse in most disconnect switches in my opionion I would be in violation of the section I posted.
Where is this policy actually explained? How did it arrive its distances?
The OSHA reference does not include a distance. NFPA70E does not define 'working near'. About the closest they get is the Restricted Approach, and Prohibited Approach boundaries based on voltages.

Questions like this need to be addressed in companies' Electrical Safe Work Practices programs.

I am not trying to say what procedures are or are not safe. I am simply pointing out that most safe work practices are company dependent and are not explicitly defined in OSHA or 70E.
 
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