Connecting residential service

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Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
So do you connect services to drops deenergized?

At some point something needs to be connected to something that is energized unless we shut down entire distribution systems, transmission lines or even generation plants for every connection as they occur, that would go real well with consumers :jawdrop:

Come on man. Look up some of this stuff before jumping to conclusions.


1910.269(a)(1)(i)
This section covers the operation and maintenance of electric power generation, control, transformation, transmission, and distribution lines and equipment. These provisions apply to:
1910.269(a)(1)(i)(A)
Power generation, transmission, and distribution installations, including related equipment for the purpose of communication or metering, which are accessible only to qualified employees;


Utilities and their workers are covered under different codes and regulations than electricians, carpenters, painters, etc...
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I'm sure this is a dumb question. If the meter is not pulled, why wouldn't you open the main CB? Wouldn't that get rid of any issues concerning damaging equipment?

ice
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Utilities and their workers are covered under different codes and regulations than electricians, carpenters, painters, etc...

Why, the hazards are the same no matter who is doing the task.

That is what I have never been able to figure out. It really makes no sense. These people are professionals, they can do this. This other group of professionals in a very similar related field doing a task that is basically at the cross over point of the two professions are different, they can't handle the hazards for some reason.

A little like saying you are not allowed to drive over 60MPH or you may be seriously injured should something go wrong, yet a police officer is allowed to drive any speed deemed necessary in some cases. Or following other traffic rules is the same for that matter. A smashed up body is still a smashed up body if you are in a wreck, a dead body is still a dead body no matter who it happens to.

An arc or shock incident will not care if the worker is a lineman or a electrician, it is still going to unleash its wrath on whatever is in the way.

I'm all for deenergizing and/or proper protection as much as possible on either side of this issue, but this one has never made sense why it applies to one group but not the other.
 

Greg1707

Senior Member
Location
Alexandria, VA
Occupation
Business owner Electrical contractor
training

training

What kind and where does the average "electrician" get proper training to work hot? For those that work hot, what kind of training did you receive? I have been working in this field for several years and I have never met anyone that had any kind of formal training to work hot.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
What kind and where does the average "electrician" get proper training to work hot? For those that work hot, what kind of training did you receive? I have been working in this field for several years and I have never met anyone that had any kind of formal training to work hot.

As a POCO employee, I've had training through my employer through a national program. It is expensive, and I have had probably over 1000 hours of training over the years, including transmission stick work training. (no bare hand work for me)

As a licensed electrician, I have never had much more that OJT.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I'm sure this is a dumb question. If the meter is not pulled, why wouldn't you open the main CB? Wouldn't that get rid of any issues concerning damaging equipment?

ice

You would open the main. I was just using that as an example for the reason I disconnect the hots first and reconnect last. It's just by force of habit because with a MWBC you would never disconnect the neutral first. In this case we are not talking about the same thing but I like to follow the same procedure.

-Hal
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
We always turn off all breakers in the panel, main first, each circuit one at a time. Habit, then we pull the meter,then we cut service, hots first. When I worked in the glass plant we had to work everything hot we could not shut down anything . They have since changed this, now they are not allow to work anything hot. A lot of times we can't get it inspected right a way and have to wait for that inspection. Poco will not reconnect until after it has been inspected. I will not leave HO without power in the winter time. At one of our IAEI meeting one of the POCO guys that attend even told us they were alright with us reconnecting. I treat everything as hot, we take no chances. If we don't feel comfortable doing something we do not doing it. I have call my old bosses on some jobs where I needed an engineer to help figure something out.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
As long as the meter isn't set then it doesn't matter. My preference is to hook the hots first so I don't accidentally bump the bare neutral when it is connected. It is easier to get the neutral out of harms way when it is not connected.

My rationale as well especially with SE cable where you have 4' of bare neutral conductor sticking out of the weatherhead.
 
I am not going to go crazy here but I will point out the following.

There is no code / standard / regulation compliant way for any electrical contractor employee (not working for an electrical utility) to cut free or tie in a service drop regardless of the utilities traditions or expectations.

It is live work that is prohibited.

If you are a business owner and allow, or even expect your employees to do this you are in violation, are subject to large fines and if the employee gets injured or killed you will be in an indefensible position.

Now when I used to do that work it would be hots off first and connected last.

Really? I admit I dont know OSHA regulations at all but I have a hard time believing that it is universally prohibited from working on things hot. Where is the line drawn? Does any panel I work in have to be de-energized (assuming I am an employee which I am not. I am an officer of a corporation so I dont have to adhere to OSHA..)? Does amployee have to pull the meter to work in a service panel or is the wording specific that you can work near live parts but not with live parts?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Really? I admit I dont know OSHA regulations at all but I have a hard time believing that it is universally prohibited from working on things hot. Where is the line drawn? Does any panel I work in have to be de-energized (assuming I am an employee which I am not. I am an officer of a corporation so I dont have to adhere to OSHA..)? Does amployee have to pull the meter to work in a service panel or is the wording specific that you can work near live parts but not with live parts?
There is such thing as a "hot work permit". Valid reasons to obtain one according to OSHA are very limited. There usually needs to be more danger from turning the power off than there is risk for people working on something energized. Loss of production does not fall in that category. An explosion because some chemical process could not be interrupted may be an exception, but then again what if power is lost during some repair anyway? Not easy calls to make if doing like OSHA wants you to do it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Utilities and their workers are covered under different codes and regulations than electricians, carpenters, painters, etc...

Why, the hazards are the same no matter who is doing the task.

I disagree with that.

Of course if we restrict the conversation to just tying in an overhead drop at the POA the hazard is the same for an EC employee or a POCO employee.

But that one task is not what the rules are aimed at. The rules are general and in general the hazards POCO employees are not in fact the same as EC employee face. And neither are the hardships in turning the power off.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There is no code / standard / regulation compliant way for any electrical contractor employee (not working for an electrical utility) to cut free or tie in a service drop regardless of the utilities traditions or expectations.

It is live work that is prohibited.

If you are a business owner and allow, or even expect your employees to do this you are in violation, are subject to large fines and if the employee gets injured or killed you will be in an indefensible position.


Really? I admit I dont know OSHA regulations at all but I have a hard time believing that it is universally prohibited from working on things hot.

Have you been living under a rock? ;) Kidding.


Where is the line drawn? Does any panel I work in have to be de-energized

To add a breaker to a panel? Yes.

To repair a panel? Yes.

To troubleshoot no, but you have to wear PPE.

(assuming I am an employee which I am not. I am an officer of a corporation so I dont have to adhere to OSHA..)?

I know that OSHA does not apply to a company owner, I am not sure were an officer of the company would fall. I suspect OSHA would apply.

Does amployee have to pull the meter to work in a service panel or is the wording specific that you can work near live parts but not with live parts?

'Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them.'





Here is the relevant OSHA section.


1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.

Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.



Now, if you are like most you will latch onto 'removal of illumination for an area' as justification for live work. But please consider the following.

You have an employee do some live work using 'illumination' as the reason. Now the employee is hurt, or even worse killed, imagine defending that decision in court.

You would be asked, 'Could you have provided alternate means of illumination?' and of course the answer to that is yes.

Furthermore there is talk of having 'removal of illumination for an area' removed altogether from the OSHA standards.


Now lets say live work is actually allowed, you still must wear full PPE for the hazards involved.

In a residential service panel this many only amount to gloves, face shield and a cotton long sleeve shirt. Or if the available fault current is high you might have to wear a full on moon suit.

OSHA is not concerned one bit about what this costs, how difficult it may be or that we have always worked live.
 

bobbymari

Senior Member
Location
los angeles ca
so humor me here. Recently did a 12 gang meter section residential. Our local poco doesnt show up normally for final connections for around 3 to 5 days after my final inspection, in this case I noticed it took them 7 days. So in scenarios like these osha has no exceptions on live work? We are expected to leave tenants without power for days? If this is so, now you have a confliction with the housing authorities as owners are required to provide (not pay for) provide plumbing and electricity.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
so humor me here. Recently did a 12 gang meter section residential. Our local poco doesnt show up normally for final connections for around 3 to 5 days after my final inspection, in this case I noticed it took them 7 days. So in scenarios like these osha has no exceptions on live work? We are expected to leave tenants without power for days? If this is so, now you have a confliction with the housing authorities as owners are required to provide (not pay for) provide plumbing and electricity.

If you want to strictly follow the rules then in that case I guess the owner takes the POCO to court, don't know if he wins his case but it is what it is.

I totally understand your point though.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Another area where common OSHA violations likely occur is working off ladders, scaffolding, other elevated work areas, and associated fall prevention.

I don't think you can work above 4 feet off the floor and you must start to comply with all the rules associated. So where do you tie off when on a 8 foot stepladder installing a chandelier on a 12 foot ceiling that has no exposed framing members?
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Another area where common OSHA violations likely occur is working off ladders, scaffolding, other elevated work areas, and associated fall prevention.

I don't think you can work above 4 feet off the floor and you must start to comply with all the rules associated. So where do you tie off when on a 8 foot stepladder installing a chandelier on a 12 foot ceiling that has no exposed framing members?

Trestle ladder.:thumbsup:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Are you allowed to let go of the ladder to hang the light fixture if not tied off to something?:slaphead:


Yes

1926.1053(b)(20)

When ascending or descending a ladder, the user shall face the ladder.

1926.1053(b)(21)

Each employee shall use at least one hand to grasp the ladder when progressing up and/or down the ladder.

1926.1053(b)(22)

An employee shall not carry any object or load that could cause the employee to lose balance and fall.

[55 FR 47689, Nov. 14, 1990; 56 FR 2585, Jan. 23, 1991; 56 FR 41794, Aug. 23, 1991]
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska

So I can work off a ladder of virtually unlimited height, (would hate to carry that one around) not have to attach myself to either the ladder or something else should I slip and fall, but if on a scaffold 5 feet off the ground I must have a railing and possibly need to attach myself to something should I slip and fall?
 
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