Ringing Out A New Electrical Installation

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I have been an electrical contractor for over 30 years and have never had to "ring out" our wiring after the rough-in. We always take our time when roughing in and double check everything visually. Now we are working on a large apartment complex and the super is requiring that we "ring out" our circuits before they close in. What is the easiest way to do this without taking too much time? I can, of course, come up with some guesses as to how to do this but there might be some method out there that I'm not thinking of. Thanks.
Wire Runner
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Was this request made after a price was agreed on?

If so is the super willing to pay for this additional work?

I do this all the time with fire alarm work but I know that going in so I splice all the boxes through as I go allowing me to ring it out at the panel end anytime I want.

If your boxes are not spliced through this is going to take some time.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
A pair of telephones, a twelve volt battery(& battery terminal)and two sets of alligator clips can ring out a circuit.
From reading your OP its clear that management is not clear in what they want.

Meggering a complete circuit is what they really need. This will be a good case history where your wiring is good by meggering then the walls are closed.the AFCI breaker will be your first clue that a nail has damaged a circuit, megging will confirm any AFCI is acting up.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Back in the 80s I was doing a lot of multi-unit condo buildings with fire alarm systems. The cable used was non-metallic low energy cable.

x_cb545-pl-142-1k_72dpi.jpg


This was often damaged by the other trades so I would set up a buzzer to tell me if it shorted to ground.


I used a battery like this

Rayovac%206V-HD%206-Volt%20Heavy%20Duty%20Lantern%20Battery-500x500.jpg


I would tape a buzzer like this to the side of the battery

720-1.jpg


and use some leads with alligator clips.

One lead to ground, the other to the fire alarm conductors, if the cables in the building shorted to ground the buzzer would go off.
 

eHunter

Senior Member
Back in the 80s I was doing a lot of multi-unit condo buildings with fire alarm systems. The cable used was non-metallic low energy cable.

x_cb545-pl-142-1k_72dpi.jpg


This was often damaged by the other trades so I would set up a buzzer to tell me if it shorted to ground.


I used a battery like this

Rayovac 6V-HD 6-Volt Heavy Duty Lantern Battery-500x500.jpg


I would tape a buzzer like this to the side of the battery

720-1.jpg


and use some leads with alligator clips.

One lead to ground, the other to the fire alarm conductors, if the cables in the building shorted to ground the buzzer would go off.

A booger alarm! :D
 
A pair of telephones, a twelve volt battery(& battery terminal)and two sets of alligator clips can ring out a circuit.
From reading your OP its clear that management is not clear in what they want.

Meggering a complete circuit is what they really need. This will be a good case history where your wiring is good by meggering then the walls are closed.the AFCI breaker will be your first clue that a nail has damaged a circuit, megging will confirm any AFCI is acting up.

Can you give me a simple electrical one line diagram of your bell tester inserted into the wires to be tested. Thanks.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
In my world verifying electrically that the wires have been run correctly in some way is always required.

Inside a panel it can be easily done with an ohmmeter to verify that the wire is continuous.

For long field runs that are often damaged in pulls the only practical solution is to megger them. A pulled wire can ring out but still have insulation damage. In fact, insulation damage is far more common than broken wires.

It is not like either of these procedures costs all that much to do. The added cost is almost trivial compared to having to open up some walls to repair something later on.
 

JoeDunn

Member
Location
Central NJ
Ringing out ....

Ringing out ....

When you bid the job ... was this written in the contract? If not, better get him or the owner/GC to sign off on the extra's before doing anything. Depending on the size of the building & the number of units etc etc ... this might take 10-30 man hrs.

A CCRC job in PA requested this as an extra last summer and it took 4 of us 5 days to do 242 units. No problems found .... but once the rocking was finish and we deviced out ... we found 21 dead shorts caused by sheetrock screws missing the studs and nails from exterior siding panels that were replaced because the color lot was off a shade.

Guess doing it now and for free .... might buy you something if you plan on doing more work for these people in the future.

Good luck!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It is not like either of these procedures costs all that much to do. The added cost is almost trivial compared to having to open up some walls to repair something later on.

Regardless the EC should not be expected to absorb the costs of ringing it out if that was not in the bid package.

I don't know about your world but in construction the margins are very small and anything beyond what was bid on must be charged out.

If the carpenters put a nail in the wire it is not the electrcian that will be paying for wall repairs.
 

James S.

Senior Member
Location
Mesa, Arizona
Years ago I worked for a company that required us to do a continuity check on all wiring at the rough stage. All neutrals were pigtailed at the outlets and all neutrals and grounds landed in the panel at rough so all we had to do was check for continuity between the neutral and ground on outlets with only one wire in the box.

I thought it was a waste of time for me and my crew but I wasn't the one signing the checks.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Regardless the EC should not be expected to absorb the costs of ringing it out if that was not in the bid package.

I don't know about your world but in construction the margins are very small and anything beyond what was bid on must be charged out.

If the carpenters put a nail in the wire it is not the electrcian that will be paying for wall repairs.

How are you going to show the wire was Ok when it was installed if it was not tested?

How do you even verify it is correct? You can't do it visually.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
How are you going to show the wire was Ok when it was installed if it was not tested?

How do you even verify it is correct? You can't do it visually.

Have you ever herd of the "smoke" test? You turn on all the circuits and if everything works and there is no smoke then it's assumed to be good. ;)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
How are you going to show the wire was Ok when it was installed if it was not tested?

How do you even verify it is correct? You can't do it visually.

Ah. When there is a screw or nail in it or when it is crushed by a sprinkler pipe or scanned by duct work or burned by a plumbers torch it is pretty damn evident.

I can't ever recall having a hard time figuring it out.

As far as being incorrectly wired it is rare but if so that is on us. The cost to verify correct connections would be far more than the once in a while repairs.
 

SG-1

Senior Member
eHunter
Is it possible to post a "one line" diagram of how your bell tester is inserted into the circuit or multiple circuits to test? Thanks.

Wire Runner

Does this help?

One shows ringing an ungrounded conductor from one break to the next.

Two shows an an alternate method if the distance between the two points to be checked is longer than the leads.
The meter will read the battery voltage. Polarity identifies the wires. The bell will ring if a short circuit exists.
 

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macmikeman

Senior Member
It's time for your macmiketip of the day! This will not have any bearing on the question of wire defects, like meggering will , but rather to ensure all cables were installed properly and you didn't miss any. Get a hold of a tone generator and a testing wand, one like this: tone-generator-and-probe-kits.jpg

Do not hook up the service feeders at the panel, but land all grounds and neutrals. For this to work right, the grounds and neutral connections should also be made at the outlets, switches, and lights, unless only one cable is entering the box. Clip one lead to the ground bar, and one to the neutral bus at the panel, and turn on the tone generator. Now go around to every outlet and switch box, and light fixture, and if you got all the wiring in right, you will loudly hear the tone wand when you either touch or hold it close to the neutral or ground wires in the box. If you missed a cable run, the volume on the probe wand will be significantly less than a similar box which has its path back to the panel. Side note- if there is any crossing of the neutrals and grounds,(as in shorted) the tone will not warble, but instead sound like fuzz. So this method also helps finding a spot where a neutral and ground wire are touching together, but of course a continuity tester would also work fine for that. The nice thing about the wand is you really don't have to skin any wires to get it to work, unlike using a continuity tester.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
It's probably required in those pesky specs

If it is a mobile or manufactured home it is required by that pesky NEC.
550-17.B (2008)
(B) Continuity and operational tests and polarity checks.
Each mobile home shall be subjected to all of the following:
(1) An electrical continuity check to ensure that all exposed electrically conductive parts are properly bonded.
(2)an electrical operational test to demonstrate that all equipment, except water heaters and electric furnaces, is connected and in working order.
(3)Electrical polarity checks of permanently wired equipment and receptacle outlets to determine that connections have been properly made.
They also have to pass a dielectric strength required by 550-17. A
 
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