Dwelling unit/ hotel-like rooms in same unit

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A customer contacted me and asked me to look at a project for him. He wants to build three total units, each will have a dwelling unit and two hotel-like rooms for a total of (3) dwelling units and (6) hotel-like rooms. He requested one service to feed all the units. I did load calculations for a dwelling unit and for (2) hotel-like rooms in the first unit. My thought was to apply Table 220.84 to the (3) dwelling units since all will be supplied by the same service but I'm not sure how the hotel-like rooms should be handled.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I think for the hotel rooms you would use the demand in Table 220.42 for that portion of the load. Is that what you are asking?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I don't think the hotel-like rooms make any difference as far as the number of dwelling units. He would have 9 total dwelling units.

Where it would make a difference is in the branch circuit calc's. For example, the apartments with full amenities will have a general lighting load calculated at 3VA/ft?. The hotel-like apartments general lighting load, if no cooking provision, would be calculated at 2VA/ft?. Other areas make a diference also, such as no kitchen, dining, pantry, etc. means no SABC's required.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If the "hotel like" units do not meet the art 100 definition of dwelling unit then they are guest rooms or suites.

Guest rooms or suites will not require laundry and SABC's.

That said the dwelling unit will require minimum of two SABC's @ 1500VA each and one laundry circuit (exception if there is a common laundry area) @ 1500 VA plus 3 VA per sq ft general lighting. So you are already at 4500 VA plus square footage value before considering anything else. The guest suite is only going to need a minimum of 3 VA per square foot for general lighting before considering anything else.
 
A customer contacted me and asked me to look at a project for him. He wants to build three total units, each will have a dwelling unit and two hotel-like rooms for a total of (3) dwelling units and (6) hotel-like rooms. He requested one service to feed all the units. I did load calculations for a dwelling unit and for (2) hotel-like rooms in the first unit. My thought was to apply Table 220.84 to the (3) dwelling units since all will be supplied by the same service but I'm not sure how the hotel-like rooms should be handled.

I must have looked right over the table at 220.42. That definitely answers my question about the hotel rooms. Is my thinking right on applying 220.84 to the dwelling units? Thanks for the input!
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
I must have looked right over the table at 220.42. That definitely answers my question about the hotel rooms. Is my thinking right on applying 220.84 to the dwelling units? Thanks for the input!
If it is within one building, yes.
But on a slightly different topic, make sure that you and he understand the limitations on separate metering (including common area loads) and/or billing tenants for a share of the electrical bill. This can interact with how you will have to do the wiring.

These limitations will generally be part of state or local business laws and not part of either NEC or building codes.
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
If the "hotel like" units do not meet the art 100 definition of dwelling unit then they are guest rooms or suites.

Guest rooms or suites will not require laundry and SABC's.

...
While I agree that without permanent cooking provisions, the hotel-like apartments would not meet the definition of a dwelling unit... and meet the definition of guest room or guest suite. However, throughout the Code, guest room and guest suit is used in conjunction with hotels and motels (and similar occupancies, whatever that is supposed to mean).

The OP's scenario does not sound like it is a hotel or motel. So what branch circuit requirements apply? The only reference I can see to a hotel-like apartment is in Table 220.12: "Hotels and motels, including apartment houses without provision for cooking by tenants".
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
While I agree that without permanent cooking provisions, the hotel-like apartments would not meet the definition of a dwelling unit... and meet the definition of guest room or guest suite. However, throughout the Code, guest room and guest suit is used in conjunction with hotels and motels (and similar occupancies, whatever that is supposed to mean).

The OP's scenario does not sound like it is a hotel or motel. So what branch circuit requirements apply? The only reference I can see to a hotel-like apartment is in Table 220.12: "Hotels and motels, including apartment houses without provision for cooking by tenants".

OP needs to clarify what these are. NEC is going to call them dwelling units or guest rooms/suites. If no permanent provisions for cooking then they are not dwelling units. I don't think it gets much simpler than that. NEC is not going to have any other name for this type of occupancy that I know of.

"Hotel like" leaves the door wide open as to what it could be. There are hotel rooms that do meet the definition of a dwelling unit, and they must be wired as a dwelling unit.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
OP needs to clarify what these are. NEC is going to call them dwelling units or guest rooms/suites. ...
The part I quoted from Table 220.12 shows the NEC recognizes "apartment houses" without cooking provisions. These are not in or of a hotel or motel. The requirements for branch circuits regarding guest rooms/suites, that is the ones which make a difference in this matter, specifically state in therein guest rooms/suites of hotels and motels. As such, the branch circuit requirements, will be "other than dwelling" and other than guest rooms and suites of hotels and motels.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The part I quoted from Table 220.12 shows the NEC recognizes "apartment houses" without cooking provisions. These are not in or of a hotel or motel. The requirements for branch circuits regarding guest rooms/suites, that is the ones which make a difference in this matter, specifically state in therein guest rooms/suites of hotels and motels. As such, the branch circuit requirements, will be "other than dwelling" and other than guest rooms and suites of hotels and motels.
Ok, now you have me confused a little as to what exactly we are debating.

I am pretty sure we have the dwelling and non dwelling issue involved here. On top of that if it is not a dwelling, looks like there may be more than one general lighting load for what is otherwise guest rooms or suites.

I have always seen any kind of transient living space that does not fit the definition of dwelling unit to be a guest room or suite of some kind. Maybe I am wrong on that.

I will add 220.12 also mentions "lodge rooms". What exactly is that, and what is the difference between it and a guest room/suite in a hotel for the application of articles 210 and 220?
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
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I will add 220.12 also mentions "lodge rooms". What exactly is that, and what is the difference between it and a guest room/suite in a hotel for the application of articles 210 and 220?
IMO "lodge rooms" have nothing to do with lodging. They are the meeting and ceremonial rooms of a lodge organization. Such as the Indepenent Order of Odd Fellows, Rotary International, and the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks.
Of course I may be totally wrong about that and it could be a reference to rental rooms in building which calls itself a lodge, as in ski lodge. :)

The fact that word lodge appears in the NEC only in that one reference makes it debatable.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
IMO "lodge rooms" have nothing to do with lodging. They are the meeting and ceremonial rooms of a lodge organization. Such as the Indepenent Order of Odd Fellows, Rotary International, and the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks.
Of course I may be totally wrong about that and it could be a reference to rental rooms in building which calls itself a lodge, as in ski lodge. :)

The fact that word lodge appears in the NEC only in that one reference makes it debatable.

Never thought of that, but at same time don't know why such a room wouldn't fit into other classifications in the table.

Could fit into clubs or assembly halls/auditoriums easily.

Many of those places also use same space for other events that may put them into another category.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Ok, now you have me confused a little as to what exactly we are debating.

I am pretty sure we have the dwelling and non dwelling issue involved here. On top of that if it is not a dwelling, looks like there may be more than one general lighting load for what is otherwise guest rooms or suites.

I have always seen any kind of transient living space that does not fit the definition of dwelling unit to be a guest room or suite of some kind. Maybe I am wrong on that.

I will add 220.12 also mentions "lodge rooms". What exactly is that, and what is the difference between it and a guest room/suite in a hotel for the application of articles 210 and 220?
Without clarification, which would likely have to come from the customer, we'll never be sure. The OP did use the terms dwelling unit and hotel-like room. So I'd say it's a safe bet this is not a hotel, motel, motor lodge, travel inn, or any similar commercial establishment. I do believe the intent is for all to be dwellings, just not all as NEC defined individual dwelling units.

I have no objection to calling each of the hotel-like rooms a guest room. All I'm saying is branch circuit requirements for guest rooms of hotels and motels will not apply, and per Table 220.12, the NEC recognizes these rooms as apartments.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Without clarification, which would likely have to come from the customer, we'll never be sure. The OP did use the terms dwelling unit and hotel-like room. So I'd say it's a safe bet this is not a hotel, motel, motor lodge, travel inn, or any similar commercial establishment. I do believe the intent is for all to be dwellings, just not all as NEC defined individual dwelling units.

I have no objection to calling each of the hotel-like rooms a guest room. All I'm saying is branch circuit requirements for guest rooms of hotels and motels will not apply, and per Table 220.12, the NEC recognizes these rooms as apartments.

Seems we were in disagreement and yet both trying to say the same thing. You did bring the fact that one could use 2 VA per square foot instead of 3 VA for lighting load calculations in those hotel like rooms to my attention. Not that it would make much of a significant difference in feeder size to use 3 VA unless you had a lot of units.
 
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