Portable Generators - GFCI - System Bonding Jumper

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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Can you please show me where it's written in your state law that electrical inspectors have the right to demand a homeowner purchases a portable generator in order for the inspector to inspect at the time of a transfer panel/inlet installation?
I already have


To answer your question, I pull a permit for a transfer switch or interlock and inlet installation. My permit has absolutely nothing to do with a generator, nor does my installation.
As an inspector you will tell me just what you intend to connect to this mess or no inspection, plain and simple

The same way as I pull a permit for a receptacle and have nothing to do with what the customer plugs into it.
You are not plugging the generator into a receptacle you are plugging the building into a receptacle, a big difference. With the receptacle what is being plugged in is receiving power from the receptacle but when the house gets plugged in to the receptacle the house is receiving power.
If I used my own personal generator to connect to the system in order to show it in use, I would have zero liability and I wouldn't have to answer to my state licensing board for anything.
Here it would be gross negligence
 

jumper

Senior Member
I read the NC General Statutes Mike refers to and yes, an inspector can demand to see the listing.

If it is to be installed later, the inspector has the right to see it before it is connected.

North Carolina General Statutes ? 66-27.01 Enforcement

The Commissioner or his designee or the electrical inspector of any State or local governing agency may initiate any appropriate action or proceedings to prevent, restrain, or correct any violation of this Article. The Commissioner or his designee, upon showing proper credentials and in discharge of his duties pursuant to this Article may, at reasonable times and without advance notice, enter and inspect any facility within the State in which there is reasonable cause to suspect that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment not in conformance with the requirements of this Article are being sold, offered for sale, assigned, or disposed of by gift, as premiums, or in any other similar manner. (1989, c. 681, s. 1; 1997‑456, s. 27.)
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.
(7) Engaging in malpractice, unethical conduct, fraud, deceit, gross negligence, gross incompetence, or gross misconduct in the practice of electrical contracting.

Installing your generator for the purpose of an inspection and then removing your generator is deceit. You were trying to deceive the code enforcement official into believing that the complete system was installed when in fact it wasn?t.

You seem to be hung on the thought that a code official cannot tell someone what they can plug into a receptacle to receive power for that device being plugged in and I agree with you on this.

What you are not seeing is the generator is not receiving power from the plug but instead the plug is receiving power from the generator.

I don?t know any inspector that would let you install from the combiner box to the inverter and call for an inspection saying the homeowner is going to install their own solar panels so this is a bad example.

You are correct that with this type set up a homeowner can change to a different generator without anyone knowing but a homeowner can also change light bulbs without anyone else knowing but I promise should the lamp holder be rated for a 40 watt bulb and on inspection there be a 100 watt bulb in the lamp holder it would be turned down and no I will not do a final without bulbs being installed.

You said;
Then I would call the DCA and they would put you in your place.
Maybe it would be a good idea for you to call the DCA and ask them about your type of installation, who knows you might learn something.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I read the NC General Statutes Mike refers to and yes, an inspector can demand to see the listing.

If it is to be installed later, the inspector has the right to see it before it is connected.

North Carolina General Statutes ? 66-27.01 Enforcement

The Commissioner or his designee or the electrical inspector of any State or local governing agency may initiate any appropriate action or proceedings to prevent, restrain, or correct any violation of this Article. The Commissioner or his designee, upon showing proper credentials and in discharge of his duties pursuant to this Article may, at reasonable times and without advance notice, enter and inspect any facility within the State in which there is reasonable cause to suspect that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment not in conformance with the requirements of this Article are being sold, offered for sale, assigned, or disposed of by gift, as premiums, or in any other similar manner. (1989, c. 681, s. 1; 1997‑456, s. 27.)

Am I to read this as you can go anywhere you want and inspect anything on a hunch as long it's at a reasonable time? (and reasonable cause, in the inspectors view not an impartial party, so draconian)

No administrative warrant just walk in and inspect.... do guys that work in NC goose step when the inspector calls your name? I hope I am reading this wrong. NC inspectors can interpret the code as they see fit. And you wonder inspectors are vilified, that broad sweeping power is tantamount to a dictatorship. Sounds like some here would use it.

I concede that an imminent life safety hazard is reasonable cause, but a checks and balance of that power must be used. Such as a warrant. This prevents abuse. The way it's written, if you suspected a single MC clip was missing from an existing install, you could just walk in and write it up:jawdrop:


The power has gone to your heads down there. That doesn't pass the smell test and lasts common sense.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Mike, my biggest problem with what you have been saying is that you, and apparently NC are requiring an installed transfer switch to have an accompanying generator. Say all you want about having a "complete system", people are always purchasing only part of complete systems and finishing them up at later times. At very least the transfer switch should be approved, and a permit should be expected when the "complete system" is finished someday.


I have seen many manual transfer switches installed with no generator. Sometimes they sit there for years and never have a generator connected to them. When a disaster strikes and there is widespread power outage, sure someone will likely connect a generator to it, likely with no permit, maybe they are not all that well aware of what they are doing, but I would like to think that they are taking that risk on their own, and the fact there is a properly installed transfer switch that maybe there is a good chance they know enough to connect it there and the risk of backfeeding the utility is at least minimized.

I commend you on doing what you think is right, but not everyone is under NC law either, what is your opinion if it were not for NC law?
 

jumper

Senior Member
Am I to read this as you can go anywhere you want and inspect anything on a hunch as long it's at a reasonable time? (and reasonable cause, in the inspectors view not an impartial party, so draconian)

No administrative warrant just walk in and inspect.... do guys that work in NC goose step when the inspector calls your name? I hope I am reading this wrong. NC inspectors can interpret the code as they see fit. And you wonder inspectors are vilified, that broad sweeping power is tantamount to a dictatorship. Sounds like some here would use it.

I concede that an imminent life safety hazard is reasonable cause, but a checks and balance of that power must be used. Such as a warrant. This prevents abuse. The way it's written, if you suspected a single MC clip was missing from an existing install, you could just walk in and write it up:jawdrop:


The power has gone to your heads down there. That doesn't pass the smell test and lasts common sense.

nh, I am not an inspector nor do I live in NC, although I have worked there. I merely posted the statute.

NC has it's laws and that is what I posted, I did not say I agree with the law.
 

eHunter

Senior Member
Another consideration is leadtime for delivery of a particular genset.
I am personally aware of a recent Cummins/Onan genset that was ordered and has a 6 month delivery date due to backorder of certain options.
Does the inspection, final, CO and closing get held up 6 months bcause of a manufacturing delay of a non-operational critical optional convenience component?
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
nh, I am not an inspector nor do I live in NC, although I have worked there. I merely posted the statute.

NC has it's laws and that is what I posted, I did not say I agree with the law.

You were clear about that. I did not mean to infer you in my post by referencing your quote. The quote's contents (the statute) and application are what I meant to direct my comments at.
 
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jumper

Senior Member
Another consideration is leadtime for delivery of a particular genset.
I am personally aware of a recent Cummins/Onan genset that was ordered and has a 6 month delivery date due to backorder of certain options.
Does the inspection, final, CO and closing get held up 6 months bcause of a manufacturing delay of a non-operational critical optional convenience component?

That is one heck of a set of adjectives.:D
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
nh, I am not an inspector nor do I live in NC, although I have worked there. I merely posted the statute.

NC has it's laws and that is what I posted, I did not say I agree with the law.

How many of you read all the way through the quote to this part?

...there is reasonable cause to suspect that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment not in conformance with the requirements of this Article are being sold, offered for sale, assigned, or disposed of by gift, as premiums, or in any other similar manner
It is not a carte blanche, it is directed at businesses which are selling things that under NC law are required to meet certain standards.

This makes me wonder whether the bolded first part of the quote was also limited to selling electrical items rather than a blank check for electrical installations on residential or commercial property. Without having the context of the article that is referred to, I cannot tell.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
How many of you read all the way through the quote to this part?


It is not a carte blanche, it is directed at businesses which are selling things that under NC law are required to meet certain standards.

This makes me wonder whether the bolded first part of the quote was also limited to selling electrical items rather than a blank check for electrical installations on residential or commercial property. Without having the context of the article that is referred to, I cannot tell.

Yep I read it too fast.
 
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