Junction Box-Accessible or Not

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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I have to replace an old fused panel with a breaker panel. The old box is recessed in a block wall. It looks like the box was set, then blocked around it.

The old cabinet (minus the guts) will stay in the wall for two reasons. The first being the customer would like a way to add circuits later should he need to, and second, it will have to be removed by dynamite!:happyyes: Seriously, I would have to bust the mortar out around it.

What I'm planning on doing is having them build out from the wall with something so the panel can be mounted and a wooden chase above the panel for the conductors to enter.

If the new panel is mounted over the old and using the old as a junction box, would that make the panel/junction box inaccessible?

I think I will have enough conductor length to just reach in the new panel and make splices there. But should they not be long enough, they would need to be spliced in the old panel.

Do you think an inspector would have a problem with the new panel covering up what will now be a JB?

Here are a few pics.





 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
I have to replace an old fused panel with a breaker panel. The old box is recessed in a block wall. It looks like the box was set, then blocked around it.


What I'm planning on doing is having them build out from the wall with something so the panel can be mounted and a wooden chase above the panel for the conductors to enter.

If the new panel is mounted over the old and using the old as a junction box, would that make the panel/junction box inaccessible?

I think I will have enough conductor length to just reach in the new panel and make splices there. But should they not be long enough, they would need to be spliced in the old panel.

Do you think an inspector would have a problem with the new panel covering up what will now be a JB?

Yes I think you have a problem using the old panel as a J box then mounting new panel over it. Extend your wooden chase to the ceiling & install 4 sq boxes or other suitable means to contain your splices.
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I wouldn't cover it. Instead, I'd flush-mount the new panel in the same location. I'm sure the new enclosure will / should be taller, but it looks like you only have entries in the bottom, so it wouldn't be that difficult to do. The wall surface doesn't look special, so the wall repair will be minimal. The only things I see to consider is if a lintel should be installed above the panel where the blocks would be cut, and if the position of the pipes will allow a shallow loadcenter to come forward flush with the wall.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Do you have a rotary hammer with a hammer only mode? If so, I'd bust out the old panel and enlarge the opening to fit the new panel in flush, bringing the existing conduits into the new panel. It would be the most elegant solution to the problem.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Do you have a rotary hammer with a hammer only mode? If so, I'd bust out the old panel and enlarge the opening to fit the new panel in flush, bringing the existing conduits into the new panel. It would be the most elegant solution to the problem.

I would second your suggestion.
 

adrock2021

Member
Location
san diego
what you're trying to do is what we call "piggybacking". and in california its a huge no-no.

ive had certain instances where inspectors allow this if you cut out a large part of the panel can you're 'piggybacking'. but even i questioned his logic.

like others have said, its easy enough to pop that out with a chipping hammer and a diamond blade grinder.

you never want to lose access to your electrical connections or pull sections! good luck!
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I wouldn't cover it. Instead, I'd flush-mount the new panel in the same location. I'm sure the new enclosure will / should be taller, but it looks like you only have entries in the bottom, so it wouldn't be that difficult to do. The wall surface doesn't look special, so the wall repair will be minimal. The only things I see to consider is if a lintel should be installed above the panel where the blocks would be cut, and if the position of the pipes will allow a shallow loadcenter to come forward flush with the wall.

Do you have a rotary hammer with a hammer only mode? If so, I'd bust out the old panel and enlarge the opening to fit the new panel in flush, bringing the existing conduits into the new panel. It would be the most elegant solution to the problem.

I would second your suggestion.

As I stated in my OP, the customer doesn't want the new panel flush mounted like the old one. He wants to be able to add circuits in the future. So building it out and having the chase up to the ceiling will allow this.
If you notice the PVC LB hanging down, someone just notched out a hole in the panel cover and ran the wires in there for an added circuit.:eek:
 

sparks27

Member
Location
Portland, Oregon
Here's what I would do, remove old panel, chip out a couple slots in the bricks at the top of old panel.
install two spare conduits. Install new panel inside cavity in wall. build a little trough to the ceiling to hide the spare conduits.
you will be able to add circuits later if they want to.
No way you can put the new panel,over the old panel, with wire inside it ,or splices behind panel.
No inspector can approve that installation.
hope that helps, let us know what you come up with, take some pic's
 

dpeter

Member
Location
Indianapolis, In.
Occupation
elevator mechanic / building maintenance
Can you mount the panel as you proposed but higher leaving six to eight inches of the old panel accessable for any splices you may need and make a cover for it?
 

dpeter

Member
Location
Indianapolis, In.
Occupation
elevator mechanic / building maintenance
How would that be listed.

I do not know the answer to that. However, old service panels are frequently used as junction/splice boxes when new services are relocated and I know of no requirement that the removable cover has to be as large as the box. Seemed like a solution but as always the devil is in the details.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
What's on the other side of that wall? Could you mount your new one back to back? Or LB out of one and back into your new one mounted side by side?

Other side is the same less the panel. It is just block covered with sheetrock. Problem is that it is a separate building that may have a separate tenant.

OP said a bathroom. And the use of greenboard suggests tile or at least a tub or shower.
Not a great place for a panel. :)

He did? Where?



:happyno:I may need to use a bathroom often while doing this, but it's not in a bathroom.:)

I didn't say anything about a bathroom.:blink:
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think it is still accessible according to the definition of accessible in the NEC.

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of
being removed or exposed without damaging the building
structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure
or finish of the building.
 
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