Proper receptacle for Dryer

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jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
This is from the manual also. Please notice nothing on the load side N. But they still have you wire a 'white' to it.

What about the UL listing?

bosch2.JPG

Instructions seem clear to me.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Im guessing to get new installers to pull a 4 wire feed for future applications... I think:?

No. You can use the old hook up. Walk away from the instructions and come back to them with a fresh mind.

Leave the receptacle and get a 3 prong dryer plug.

What scares me more is when installers leave the strap or jumper attached in a new 4 wire installation.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
No. You can use the old hook up. Walk away from the instructions and come back to them with a fresh mind.

Leave the receptacle and get a 3 prong dryer plug.

What scares me more is when installers leave the strap or jumper attached in a new 4 wire installation.

Problem is both the washer and the dryer will be now grounding through a neutral. There is nothing coming from the neutral terminal into the machine or the plug for the washer.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
No. You can use the old hook up. Walk away from the instructions and come back to them with a fresh mind.

Leave the receptacle and get a 3 prong dryer plug.

What scares me more is when installers leave the strap or jumper attached in a new 4 wire installation.
I have hooked up dryers that are European and sold in the US. They are straight 240. There is no 120. They are STRAIGHT 240V.

There is a place for a white wire to land but it goes nowhere once the jumper is removed. You could land EGC on it, have the bonding jumper in place and there would be no objectionable current. It would look better with the EGC landed on the green screw, but electrically it would matter not. There is no neutral current.

If you had a four wire circuit you would remove the jumper, land the EGC, and land the white per instructions and it would do nothing. It is just a dummy terminal.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
The dryer has a 240 volt plug for the washer as well if need be.

Here is a some pics of one example. Note that they are stacked but can also be side by side:

http://www.theartofdoingstuff.com/it-aint-that-hard-any-of-it-how-to-fix-your-dryer/

11.If the ground wire shown below from N to PE is not
part of the 3-wire cord assembly you have it must be
obtained/purchased separately and it must be
installed.
12.Install the last terminal block screw (Philips) and 1
grounding screw (T20 torx) at locations N and PE.


Hook it up like the instructions say for a 3 wire and leave the 'white' on the 'neutral' bar.

You are over thinking this. The instructions tell you what to do.

Use only a 4-wire/conductor power cord when
the appliance is installed in a mobile home,
recreational vehicle, in a new branch-circuit
installations or where the local codes do not
permit grounding through the neutral.


250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers. Frames
of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes
that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be
connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the
manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only
where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in
the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,
wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,
clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of
the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following
conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire;
or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wyeconnected
system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG
copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded
conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE serviceentrance
cable and the branch circuit originates at the
service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of
the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting
of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and
their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors
to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated
area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of
the supply.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hook it up like the instructions say for a 3 wire and leave the 'white' on the 'neutral' bar.

You are over thinking this. The instructions tell you what to do.

Use only a 4-wire/conductor power cord when
the appliance is installed in a mobile home,
recreational vehicle, in a new branch-circuit
installations or where the local codes do not
permit grounding through the neutral.

Seems I have been disagreeing with you a lot lately, but I do agree with you here:blink:

This appliance is apparently intended to be connected to a 125/250 volt supply even though there is no neutral conductor necessary for operation. I have seen some ranges that are US design, that do not utilize a neutral, but still have same 3/4 wire 125/250 volt supply arrangements as most other ranges. I did about 30 apartments a few years back with all of them being that way, since they were new branch circuits they all had 14-50 configuration cords and receptacle installed and the neutral did nothing. But the neutral was still there if they ever changed to a range that needed a neutral. If I were OP I would connect the 10-30 plug and install the bonding jumper in the appliance, if not comfortable with that for some reason then install a 4 wire circuit and a 14-30 receptacle.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
11.If the ground wire shown below from N to PE is not
part of the 3-wire cord assembly you have it must be
obtained/purchased separately and it must be
installed.
12.Install the last terminal block screw (Philips) and 1
grounding screw (T20 torx) at locations N and PE.


Hook it up like the instructions say for a 3 wire and leave the 'white' on the 'neutral' bar.

You are over thinking this. The instructions tell you what to do.

Use only a 4-wire/conductor power cord when
the appliance is installed in a mobile home,
recreational vehicle, in a new branch-circuit
installations or where the local codes do not
permit grounding through the neutral.


250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers. Frames
of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes
that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be
connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the
manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only
where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in
the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,
wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,
clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of
the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following
conditions are met
.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire;
or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wyeconnected
system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG
copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded
conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE serviceentrance
cable and the branch circuit originates at the
service equipment
.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of
the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting
of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and
their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors
to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated
area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of
the supply.

If I understand the OP correctly, the branch circuit originates from a sub panel and not the service equipment. If that is the case, I don't see how the exception listed above can be used to let the circuit stand as is. This is from a technical perspective.

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal, but that is just my opinion and doesn't count.

I do know that I recently relocated some switches in a commercial building and I used mc cable. I pulled 3-wire cable so a neutral would be in the switch box, and I asked the inspector if the job would have been turned down if I had used a 2-wire cable instead of the 3-wire. The answer was
That is a bullchit code, I'm not worried about that.
.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If I understand the OP correctly, the branch circuit originates from a sub panel and not the service equipment. If that is the case, I don't see how the exception listed above can be used to let the circuit stand as is. This is from a technical perspective.

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal, but that is just my opinion and doesn't count.

I do know that I recently relocated some switches in a commercial building and I used mc cable. I pulled 3-wire cable so a neutral would be in the switch box, and I asked the inspector if the job would have been turned down if I had used a 2-wire cable instead of the 3-wire. The answer was .
True it was not supplied from service equipment in the OP. That said if an appliance delivery/installer shows up and there is a 10-30 receptacle already in place that is what cord he installs on the appliance and he generally doesn't know any better beyond matching what is there. OP does know better, and seeing how he faces some discrepancy in what code currently allows and what is there, he has a decision to make. Only other thing may be if the installation was code compliant at the time it was installed. Were those 10-30 receptacle configurations ever permitted by code to be installed from a non service panel? I have seen many older cases where they were, but doesn't mean they were code compliant at the time of their installation.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
If I understand the OP correctly, the branch circuit originates from a sub panel and not the service equipment. If that is the case, I don't see how the exception listed above can be used to let the circuit stand as is. This is from a technical perspective.

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal, but that is just my opinion and doesn't count.

I do know that I recently relocated some switches in a commercial building and I used mc cable. I pulled 3-wire cable so a neutral would be in the switch box, and I asked the inspector if the job would have been turned down if I had used a 2-wire cable instead of the 3-wire. The answer was .

OP is an existing application.

IMHO the original installation may have considered this:

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting
of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and
their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors
to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated
area
, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of
the supply.

Bet this is a condo or an apt.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
OP is an existing application.

IMHO the original installation may have considered this:

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting
of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and
their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors
to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated
area
, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of
the supply.

Bet this is a condo or an apt.

My understanding of the reason for the requirement of the circuit originating in the service equipment is the service equipment is where the neutral to ground connection is made. Once you come from a sub panel, you don't have that connection and the feed to the sub panel will either have a ground on the neutral or neutral on the ground if you don't use a 4-wire circuit for a 120/240V load.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
My understanding of the reason for the requirement of the circuit originating in the service equipment is the service equipment is where the neutral to ground connection is made. Once you come from a sub panel, you don't have that connection and the feed to the sub panel will either have a ground on the neutral or neutral on the ground if you don't use a 4-wire circuit for a 120/240V load.

True but equipment often have that bond internally. That is not the same as bonding passed the first disconnect.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
True but equipment often have that bond internally. That is not the same as bonding passed the first disconnect.
I have to disagree at least to some extent, and from experience. Had a service call in a mobile home one time, some voltage problems, burned up electronics, etc, all happened pretty much instantly when the occupants unplugged the dryer to move it for painting. Kind of got my suspicions up immediately as to what was going on and I was correct. The feeder neutral to the mobile home had failed and the EGC and internal bond in the dryer (that should never been connected in the first place) was carrying the neutral for the home, and they interrupted it when unplugging the dryer.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I have to disagree at least to some extent, and from experience. Had a service call in a mobile home one time, some voltage problems, burned up electronics, etc, all happened pretty much instantly when the occupants unplugged the dryer to move it for painting. Kind of got my suspicions up immediately as to what was going on and I was correct. The feeder neutral to the mobile home had failed and the EGC and internal bond in the dryer (that should never been connected in the first place) was carrying the neutral for the home, and they interrupted it when unplugging the dryer.

That is why it is prohibited in a manufactured home.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
I have to disagree at least to some extent, and from experience. Had a service call in a mobile home one time, some voltage problems, burned up electronics, etc, all happened pretty much instantly when the occupants unplugged the dryer to move it for painting. Kind of got my suspicions up immediately as to what was going on and I was correct. The feeder neutral to the mobile home had failed and the EGC and internal bond in the dryer (that should never been connected in the first place) was carrying the neutral for the home, and they interrupted it when unplugging the dryer.

That's some pretty good trouble shooting.
 
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