Panel in bathroom, pre 1993 NEC

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102 Inspector

Senior Member
Location
N/E Indiana
Occupation
Inspector- All facets
Circuit panel in "bathroom"
Home built in 1983. New owner is renovating with cosmetic items, no structural changes. He uncovered a stool flange in the "laundry room" and wants to add an additional water closet. The circuit panel for the house is located in the same room which contains laundry equipment. Since the restriction of circuit panels being located in the bathroom did not appear until the 1993 NEC, do I allow him to install the water closet as an existing condition. If the water closet is installed can he add a lavatory also since there is plumbing rough-in for it already. If only a water closet is provided, it does not meet the definition of a bathroom however the plumbing was installed under the 1981 NEC which did not restrict it. What are thoughts on this situation from the forum?
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Might be a reason that the bathroom was eliminated in the first place-- add a panel? when was the panel installed? and was it a bathroom when the install was done.
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Adding the toilet does not qualify the laundry room as a bathroom.


BATHROOM GROUP.
A group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Adding the toilet does not qualify the laundry room as a bathroom.


BATHROOM GROUP.
A group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level
That's what I was going to say.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Maybe the AHJ uses a combination inspector who does not wear his plumbing blunders when doing the inspection?

Tapatalk!

Freudian slip?

:p

I still think, even if he is a 'combination inspector' that the installation of plumbing in the presence of an existing electrical installation is not within the scope of the NEC. It is probably a violation of a plumbing or mechanical code and few, if any of us here are knowledgeable about those codes. If he is not a plumbing inspector, I don't see how he can stop any sort of plumbing work from happening.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The crux is that the fixtures are already removed. If he puts back all the fixtures then he should have to go by today's standards.

Should have not called an inspector. And if the removal was required due to another permit that previous inspector should have required the closet flange filled so it could not be reused.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Many years ago I was at the Brussels airport where the official languages are French and Flemish.
I was desperately looking for a restroom and finally found the one and only directional sign which discretely only read "WC".
:)

Tapatalk!
 

102 Inspector

Senior Member
Location
N/E Indiana
Occupation
Inspector- All facets
First, I am a combination inspector covering all trades for a smaller community. I have no records on file indicating why the water closet was never installed however in 1983 when the house was built, nothing would have prohibited it. The panel is on an exterior wall in the "laundry room" so flipping it around is not a real option. Putting a wall up to divide the space will not work either due to fixture clearances. It appears that most agree since the water closet was never installed under the older code, the new code should be applied for anything new installed even though all the plumbing was already installed. The homeowner has made no changes to the space other than peel up the carpet to find the flange. If he is set on having the water closet there, I will suggest he relocate the service panel and install a junction box for all the home runs that are at the current location. As long as the J-box is accessible, then there would be no violation. Thanks for the comments.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
First, I am a combination inspector covering all trades for a smaller community.
Okay

... It appears that most agree since the water closet was never installed under the older code, the new code should be applied for anything new installed even though all the plumbing was already installed.
Okay

.... If he is set on having the water closet there, I will suggest he relocate the service panel ...
Lost me here

As noted, the owner is not putting in a bathtub or shower, so the space is not defined as a bathroom. What regulation are you citing that prevents the installation of the toilet in this space? Unless it is blocking the panel - what is the issue?

Edit to add: Then again, maybe I need to look up the specifiec NEC section and read it - instead of assuming the code says "no panel in bathroom" (paraphrased)

ice
 
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cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
As noted, the owner is not putting in a bathtub or shower, so the space is not defined as a bathroom. What regulation are you citing that prevents the installation of the toilet in this space? Unless it is blocking the panel - what is the issue?

Edit to add: Then again, maybe I need to look up the specifiec NEC section and read it - instead of assuming the code says "no panel in bathroom" (paraphrased)

ice
The code doesn't say "no panel in bathroom", what it says is "no overcurrent devices in a bathroom."
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
I have to agree that if it does not meet the definition of bathroom ( toilet w/ sink, tub,shower, ect) then it is not a bathroom --- Just because there is a possibility it can be a bathroom is not good enough for improper enforcement. Notation on your inspection can include the usage of room at the time of final. A credible contractor will pull the permit when adding plumbing appliances so the catch should happen at plan review. I know it can be frustrating with contractors knowingly treating you as stupid ( thats because they know the limits) but you shouldn't enforce code on something not done.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member

Many years ago I was at the Brussels airport where the official languages are French and Flemish.
I was desperately looking for a restroom and finally found the one and only directional sign which discretely only read "WC".
:)

Tapatalk!

Gregg has cleared it up, I think, but this is where I'm getting confused in this thread - I remember hearing "lavatory" in grade school (back in the 1970s) being used to mean the boys' or girls' rooms. In local use, a W.C. would be what GoldDigger describes from Europe, i.e. a room with toilet(s) and sink(s). In other words, either term was used to describe what most people call a "bathroom" with just a sink and toilet. In that Bathroom Group definition from above, it's pretty obvious that the water closet is referring to a toilet and lavatory is referring to the sink (which actually kinda makes sense since you can't wash yourself in a toilet), but I had never heard the terms used that way.

Thanks!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
And just to add one more elegant term, at Standford University, in the old Quad building, you can still see over an entrance into the basement a sign reading "Ladies Public Retiring Room". In addition to other facilities it once included couches to feel faint on. :)
 
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