Grounds and Code

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alchik

Member
Hi,

I live in Tennessee. Anyway, I've purchased a home build in 1971 that, for the most part, does not have grounded outlets. There are some in newly built out areas. Downstairs bath and the kitchen along the counter top. I've had an electrician come by to see if outlets could be upgraded. In the circuit panel, the ground buss is populated but from what we are seeing they dont run into the receptacles. Unless, they are attached to the outside of the box. He said in some cases they just cut these off before getting to the receptacles. Doesn't make much sense to be but anyway. According to the electrician, there is no way to run the wires to the outlets since it looks like the runs from the garage (where the main panel is) go between the upstairs and downstairs, e.g. in the ceiling, which is closed with no access. Now, I'm not sure if the outlets upstairs are wired from below or they go all the way up in the attic and then come down to the outlets. I'll have to check that.
Anyway, my question is, do grounds have to run back to the panel by code? Can you, in the case of my downstairs, put a ground rod outside the wall, attach the wire and come into the outlets from the outside? Also, if my wires upstairs run into the attic and I find a single ground, can I junction that to populate all my upstairs outlets with ground? Before anyone yells, I'd have a licensed electrician do this, not me.

TIA for your advice...

Al
 

alchik

Member
Also, if that's not workable, can a ground be run from the panel, along the outside of the house and then through the walls to the outlets?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
At one time is was common to poke the EGC's through a hole in the back of the box and attach them to the outside of the box. They should be visible if you open the box and remove the device, if not then they may not exist which leaves a few options. If the cable feeding the box has no EGC then you can use a 2 prong, non-grounding receptacle or a GFCI receptacle with a sticker stating that no EGC is present. The one thing that you cannot do is drive a ground rod and use that to replace an EGC run with the circuit conductors.
 

alchik

Member
What about a bootleg ground to the neutral? I've heard that it is code in some areas... Granted, I'd prefer to just run a ground from the panel along the outside wall if push comes to shove. Otherwise I'm looking at having my ceiling and walls torn up...
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
:D Make that TWO things you certainly don't want to do.....
As noted, a ground rod is not a substitute for an equipment ground and "bootlegging" to the neutral conjures up a multitude of potential problems you wish to avoid.
 

alchik

Member
Ok. But on my other questions. Can a ground be run from the panel along the outside of the house to the outlets that need grounding? And, on the outlets I have in another area where one or more are grounded, can I run grounds from that single ground to the other outlets that do not have grounding? When I say I, I mean an electrician...

Thanks...
 

alchik

Member
How does your electrician want to remedy the problem?

The first one wanted to rip down my ceiling and wall. The second wanted to put GFI's in my house. Neither was acceptable. GFI's may be ok in some areas but my main concerns involve electronic equipment that will remain plugged in (TV's, computers, Ham radio, scanners and etc.). I need to have my surge suppressors working and they won't with GFI's....
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The first one wanted to rip down my ceiling and wall. The second wanted to put GFI's in my house. Neither was acceptable. GFI's may be ok in some areas but my main concerns involve electronic equipment that will remain plugged in (TV's, computers, Ham radio, scanners and etc.). I need to have my surge suppressors working and they won't with GFI's....
GFCI's have little to do with how a surge suppressor will operate. Your bigger issue as far as the surge suppressors go is having no EGC to bleed to. A bootleg ground will help some but will introduce other hazards as has been mentioned. Running a separate grounding conductor that originates at a true EGC or even a GEC connected to the premises service or feeder to the receptacles isn't exactly code compliant, code says it must be in the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductors, but is a way better choice then a bootleg ground or running to a ground rod only.
 

alchik

Member
GFCI's have little to do with how a surge suppressor will operate. Your bigger issue as far as the surge suppressors go is having no EGC to bleed to. A bootleg ground will help some but will introduce other hazards as has been mentioned. Running a separate grounding conductor that originates at a true EGC or even a GEC connected to the premises service or feeder to the receptacles isn't exactly code compliant, code says it must be in the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductors, but is a way better choice then a bootleg ground or running to a ground rod only.


Yep, that's the issue I'd read about. Surge protectors on a GFI just using it's floating ground. From all I've read it really renders the surge protector as useless. I've also heard that with certain equipment the GFI will trip quite often due to fluctuations in current.

Well, "isn't exactly code compliant" is better than absolute not! Hopefully that's an option for my downstairs. Now, for my 2nd level I have a crawlspace and an attic. I have 4 outlets that are grounded on that floor. Can grounds be run off those into the outlets that don't have grounding? I may have that option upstairs as well if the main raceway from the panel to upstairs runs into the attic versus under the floor (which would be the ceiling of downstairs. Again, I've not checked that and will today. Thanks....
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yep, that's the issue I'd read about. Surge protectors on a GFI just using it's floating ground. From all I've read it really renders the surge protector as useless. I've also heard that with certain equipment the GFI will trip quite often due to fluctuations in current.

Well, "isn't exactly code compliant" is better than absolute not! Hopefully that's an option for my downstairs. Now, for my 2nd level I have a crawlspace and an attic. I have 4 outlets that are grounded on that floor. Can grounds be run off those into the outlets that don't have grounding? I may have that option upstairs as well if the main raceway from the panel to upstairs runs into the attic versus under the floor (which would be the ceiling of downstairs. Again, I've not checked that and will today. Thanks....

Don't use the cheap no name GFCI's found at big box stores, and you will have less "nuisance trips" the reputable ones have some tolerance for "inductive kickback" but sometimes still trip during lightning storms occasionally. If your GFCI is tripped you are disconnected from the lines and shouldn't have surge problems from the lines so that myth is busted. That only leaves us with the equipment ground - which don't exist and communications/control leads as entry points for potential surges to enter the equipment, or a direct lightning strike - which your surge equipment will be useless anyway in that event.
 

alchik

Member
I found this below. I was wondering if this is the answer to running a ground from the main panel along the outside wall so the outlets on that wall could be grounded from the outside.

(2) Grounding and Bonding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance with the provisions of 250.130(C) for certain existing installations or in accordance with 250.134(B), Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I found this below. I was wondering if this is the answer to running a ground from the main panel along the outside wall so the outlets on that wall could be grounded from the outside.

(2) Grounding and Bonding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance with the provisions of 250.130(C) for certain existing installations or in accordance with 250.134(B), Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E).

What is it a subsection of? That section possibly limits where it applies.
 

alchik

Member
NEC 300.3(B)

(A) Single Conductors. Single conductors specified in Table 310.104(A) shall only be installed where part of a recognized wiring method of Chapter 3.
Exception: Individual conductors shall be permitted where installed as separate overhead conductors in accordance with 225.6.

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
(1) Paralleled Installations. Conductors shall be permitted to be run in parallel in accordance with the provisions of 310.10(H). The requirement to run all circuit conductors within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, trench, cable, or cord shall apply separately to each portion of the paralleled installation, and the equipment grounding conductors shall comply with the provisions of 250.122. Parallel runs in cable tray shall comply with the provisions of 392.20(C).
Exception: Conductors installed in nonmetallic raceways run underground shall be permitted to be arranged as isolated phase installations. The raceways shall be installed in close proximity, and the conductors shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B).
(2) Grounding and Bonding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance with the provisions of 250.130(C) for certain existing installations or in accordance with 250.134(B), Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E).
(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B). Conductors in single-conductor Type MI cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 332.31. Conductors of single-conductor Type MC cable with a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 330.31, 330.116, and 300.20(B).
(4) Enclosures. Where an auxiliary gutter runs between a column-width panelboard and a pull box, and the pull box includes neutral terminations, the neutral conductors of circuits supplied from the panelboard shall be permitted to originate in the pull box.
(C) Conductors of Different Systems.
(1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of ac and dc circuits, rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.
Informational Note No. 1: See 725.136(A) for Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors.
Informational Note No. 2: See 690.4(B) for photovoltaic source and output circuits.
(2) Over 600 Volts, Nominal. Conductors of circuits rated over 600 volts, nominal, shall not occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway with conductors of circuits rated 600 volts, nominal, or less unless otherwise permitted in (C)(2)(a) through (C)(2)(e).
(a) Secondary wiring to electric-discharge lamps of 1000 volts or less, if insulated for the secondary voltage involved, shall be permitted to occupy the same luminaire, sign, or outline lighting enclosure as the branch-circuit conductors.
(b) Primary leads of electric-discharge lamp ballasts insulated for the primary voltage of the ballast, where contained within the individual wiring enclosure, shall be permitted to occupy the same luminaire, sign, or outline lighting enclosure as the branch-circuit conductors.
(c) Excitation, control, relay, and ammeter conductors used in connection with any individual motor or starter shall be permitted to occupy the same enclosure as the motor-circuit conductors.
(d) In motors, switchgear and control assemblies, and similar equipment, conductors of different voltage ratings shall be permitted.
(e) In manholes, if the conductors of each system are permanently and effectively separated from the conductors of the other systems and securely fastened to racks, insulators, or other approved supports, conductors of different voltage ratings shall be permitted.
Conductors having nonshielded insulation and operating at different voltage levels shall not occupy the same enclosure, cable, or raceway.
300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where subject to physical damage, conductors, raceways, and cables shall be protected.
(A) Cables and Raceways Through Wood Members.
(1) Bored Holes. In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is installed through bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members, holes shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not less than 32 mm (1? in.) from the nearest edge of the wood member. Where this distance cannot be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by screws or nails by a steel plate(s) or bushing(s), at least 1.6 mm ( in.) thick, and of appropriate length and width installed to cover the area of the wiring.
Exception No. 1: Steel plates shall not be required to protect rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or electrical metallic tubing.
Exception No. 2: A listed and marked steel plate less than 1.6 mm ( in.) thick that provides equal or better protection against nail or screw penetration shall be permitted.
(2) Notches in Wood. Where there is no objection because of weakening the building structure, in both exposed and concealed locations, cables or raceways shall be permitted to be laid in notches in wood studs, joists, rafters, or other wood members where the cable or raceway at those points is protected against nails or screws by a steel plate at least 1.6 mm ( in.) thick, and of appropriate length and width, installed to cover the area of the wiring. The steel plate shall be installed before the building finish is applied.
Exception No. 1: Steel plates shall not be required to protect rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or electrical metallic tubing.
Exception No. 2: A listed and marked steel plate less than 1.6 mm ( in.) thick that provides equal or better protection against nail or screw penetration shall be permitted.
(B) Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cables and Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing Through Metal Framing Members.
(1) Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. In both exposed and concealed locations where nonmetallic-sheathed cables pass through either factory- or field-punched, cut, or drilled slots or holes in metal members, the cable shall be protected by listed bushings or listed grommets covering all metal edges that are securely fastened in the opening prior to installation of the cable.
(2) Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable and Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing. Where nails or screws are likely to penetrate nonmetallic-sheathed cable or electrical nonmetallic tubing, a steel sleeve, steel plate, or steel clip not less than 1.6 mm ( in.) in thickness shall be used to protect the cable or tubing.
Exception: A listed and marked steel plate less than 1.6 mm ( in.) thick that provides equal or better protection against nail or screw penetration shall be permitted.
(C) Cables Through Spaces Behind Panels Designed to Allow Access. Cables or raceway-type wiring methods, installed behind panels designed to allow access, shall be supported according to their applicable articles.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
OK, now that sends us to 250.130(C), which tells us where we can connect that EGC for a previously non grounding receptacle.

There was an addition in 2014, which is something people have wanted to do in the past but NEC did not exactly support doing so:


  • (4) An equipment grounding conductor that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates

 

alchik

Member
Ok. So in English that means that a separate ground can be run to the outlets separate from the existing raceway? Sounds like it to me...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ok. So in English that means that a separate ground can be run to the outlets separate from the existing raceway? Sounds like it to me...
If you have adopted 2014, mostly yes, if still on an earlier code, you don't have that added section that gives you more possibilities in many installations. Note it does mention it must originate at the same enclosure as the branch circuit you are bringing it to.
 

alchik

Member
If you have adopted 2014, mostly yes, if still on an earlier code, you don't have that added section that gives you more possibilities in many installations. Note it does mention it must originate at the same enclosure as the branch circuit you are bringing it to.

It would be. Great. Thanks for the great info guys!
 
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