Liquid Tape: An acceptable repair for damaged 480V wire?

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Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Get rid of "unacceptable".
Interesting point. In theory, all wire should have completely undamaged insulation. But in reality, I think such an install would be as rare as unicorns. I've never seen installed THHN wire that didn't have some scraping of the nylon jacket. And mild surface abrasion of XHHW should not be cause for rejection either.

I problem then becomes one of, how do you define what is acceptable and unacceptable abrasion? I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't an industry standard for determining this (e.g., "Any cut or scrape deeper than 50% of the total thickness of the insulation shall be deemed unacceptable).
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
You're right. And that's not just common sense, but logical deduction, as you do aptly demonstrated! Unfortunately, the contractor is lacking both skills. (Frankly, I hate writing all these negative things about him because it makes it sound like I just have it in for the guy. But the truth is, he really does lack common sense, logic, and the basic knowledge that is required for this type of work.)


He absolutely did not pull or inspect any wires to that inverter. I know this because our inverter monitoring system showed that our #4 inverter was offline for only 45 minutes on the day he made the repair. When we first learned that the inverter was off for such a short time, we initially assumed he had done some additional testing. But then he later told us that he had repaired those wires and his work there was complete. That's when I grabbed the ladder and opened the LB to see what he had done and discovered the Liquid Tape and LFMC jacket "repair" he had made.

ok... round two is over.... it was mentioned that this bozo does not use licensed electricians.

i'd be filing a complaint at CSLB, the department of labor, his bonding company,
but i'd probably not write a note to his mother, yet. save something for round three.

at this point, you have a response from him that he's done with warranty work.
that is really all you need. time for getting it done with the bond money.

it's pissing me off enough, that if you need a third party to write a formal assessment,
and you are in the greater LA area, i'll do it. gratis. no strings attached. i don't want the
work, i'm slammed already.

but this sort of stuff clogs my bullshit filter, and when that gets clogged, it needs cleaning
with a toothbrush, preferably the one owned by the person who caused the clogging.

so, if you need a C-10 without a financial interest to give an independent assessment,
and cost of the proper repairs, drop me a PM. hell, even if you aren't anywhere in the LA
area, but are near some good motorcycle off roading areas, i'm still game.

i need a work related excuse to go riding, and you'll do nicely.


randy
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Interesting point. In theory, all wire should have completely undamaged insulation. But in reality, I think such an install would be as rare as unicorns. I've never seen installed THHN wire that didn't have some scraping of the nylon jacket. And mild surface abrasion of XHHW should not be cause for rejection either.

I problem then becomes one of, how do you define what is acceptable and unacceptable abrasion? I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't an industry standard for determining this (e.g., "Any cut or scrape deeper than 50% of the total thickness of the insulation shall be deemed unacceptable).

"any insulation damage that requires you to use goop, popsicle sticks, and scraps of old insulation to effect a repair is unacceptable."

thhn, xhhw, thw, all have a W for "waterproof". fine. what happens if that wire gets wet? will it pass megger then?
if that pipe was underground, it would have to withstand immersion when the pipe gets full of condensation.

***gets out the scotchbright pad, and begins to clean the bullshit filter***

and when the asswhole makes correct repairs, card everyone there to make sure they have a journeyman's license.
on their person.
 
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FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Its just that unacceptable is to subjective.

I found all this out when I divorced. "As they agree", "reasonable", and so forth are not enforceable.
the subjectiveness of "unacceptable" usually is the same for any professional in this industry/trade. it becomes an argument only when one party is trying to avoid the problem. as mentioned, some small scraps/abrasions are likely accepted by the trade, but a deep tear is not. what i posted was just suggestion, its best to leave contract verbiage in the hands of the "contracts" folks who are usually law types. but in the case where you dont have "contracts/legal" dept then you need to put something in there to cover this type of scenario.

divorce court is completely different animal because in most cases the disagreements are very specific to the parties involved, whereas in electrical trade there are well-known things that are "acceptable", and the industry/trade as a whole typically has good conclusive/clear opinion.

what i would do in this case is, give a jingle to contractor, leave a VM if need be, "hi Joe, after several weeks of me spending time reviewing the repair you did I feel it was not done properly and due to other possible hidden issues I would like for you to re-pull the 30ft of wire between X and Y. i can't have this being a debate, so if you don't do this work i will be forced to use another contractor and i will seek to recoup the costs through litigation. please call me back asap. thank, Phil".

be ready to present your evidence to contractor, etc.


and when the asswhole makes correct repairs, card everyone there to make sure they have a journeyman's license.
on their person.
if they do the repair. OP doesnt really want to have this clown do it, but in court (likely small claims here) the court wants to see plaintiff gave opportunity for defendant to make it right. but agree, you card anyone who shows up to make sure they are qualified, i would even video tape it.
 
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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
if they do the repair. OP doesnt really want to have this clown do it, but in court (likely small claims here) the court wants to see plaintiff gave opportunity for defendant to make it right. but agree, you card anyone who shows up to make sure they are qualified, i would even video tape it.
I'm sure that this is not news to many of you, but one thing I learned in my one experience with small claims court is that winning a judgement is one thing while collecting on that judgement is something else altogether.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
i think you would have a very hard time convincing a court that the work has to be redone because something damaged in the install was properly repaired (if it was properly repaired).

I don't know Bob. I think it would have a lot to do with the wording in the contract. What is acceptable and what's not acceptable.

I have seen contractors assume that a code compliant job would be acceptable but a contract can be written to require a heck of a lot more than code minimum.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Consider that this was an all-new installation which should have had clean, uninterrupted runs of XHHW wire (which we paid extra for the upgraded insulation). Yet now our project is like Frankenstein's monster with numerous splices everywhere.


What does your contract say ( to include plan specs ).

I have seen contruction contracts where this type of work would have been totally unacceptable and it was covered in the contract.

When you award a $3M contract it's wise to get professional legal advice up-front.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
I'm sure that this is not news to many of you, but one thing I learned in my one experience with small claims court is that winning a judgement is one thing while collecting on that judgement is something else altogether.
failing to pay a small claims judgement will allow the court to place a lien on company assets. i dont know what the threshold is for small claims in his jurisdiction, but i was in one that was $2500. if it goes beyond the threshold then it moves up to std courts.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
regardless of the litigation, the issue needs to be fixed. how it is fixed is still TBD. a full re-pull will cost $xyz, and then the court will decide, based on evidence, how much of $xyz will return back to the OP, etc. in my view, given the evidence provided thus far in this thread (i have no idea if its all concrete data or not) the contractor should have skipped the repair and re-pulled the ~30ft that is considered the problem area. i dont even see where the repair was authorized so right there the wires as they are today can be considered the same as they were before the repair, damaged and not safe.

unauthorized work will be considered a no-no by a court.

for me, i would make that phone call, wait 24hrs for contractor to agree or not agree to do the re-pull, then forge ahead to make the re-pull whether it be by the contractor or by someone else. the goal is to fix the service, etc. its a hassle no matter how you slice it, so might as well take the blow, fix it, deal with the aftermath, move on. some will be happy, others will not, OP wont be using this contractor in the future, etc.

if it was truly a $3mil contract job, certainly $10k (just guessing wild here) to fix 30ft is peanuts.
 
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FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
not quite that simple in georgia

the court will not take action on failure to pay ??? thats crappy. how does it work in Georgia? the small claims i went to back east (NY) sent letter to defendant telling them if they dont pay within 30days of the letter the court would order liens on company assets and order their license to operate to be revoked. no contractor wants this liens and license hassle.
 
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Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Sorry, I don't have a lot of time to reply in this thread today. The contractor and sub-contractor are back today re-pulling the (8) 400MCM feeders that power our facility. These were new wires pulled in a month ago and one of the wires immediately tested bad. We just pulled them out and the one wire had significant insulation damage with a number of spots where bare copper was exposed. I'll talk more about this in another thread when I have more time.

They will also be replacing sections of two of the three damaged solar feeders. The contractor still refuses to replace the third damaged solar feeder, and the damaged branch circuit conductors to inverter #4 (the topic of this thread).
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
....The contractor still refuses to replace the third damaged solar feeder, and the damaged branch circuit conductors to inverter #4 (the topic of this thread).

whaaaat? silly contractor. same course of action, ask them why the refuse, then tell them you think its best for all parties involved that they fix this stuff too.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
this was a dbl post for some reason..... ignore this post
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
the court will not take action on failure to pay ??? thats crappy. how does it work in Georgia? the small claims i went to back east (NY) sent letter to defendant telling them if they dont pay within 30days of the letter the court would order liens on company assets and order their license to operate to be revoked. no contractor wants this liens and license hassle.
My judgements were against individuals, it was my problem to collect, one option was finding out if they owned anything, which I could then lien (or take? I don't remember). Of course this involved more court fees.

If I ever do it again I'm going after pets, which are property, that ought to get their attention.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
the court will not take action on failure to pay ??? thats crappy. how does it work in Georgia? the small claims i went to back east (NY) sent letter to defendant telling them if they dont pay within 30days of the letter the court would order liens on company assets and order their license to operate to be revoked. no contractor wants this liens and license hassle.

My judgements were against individuals, it was my problem to collect, one option was finding out if they owned anything, which I could then lien (or take? I don't remember). Of course this involved more court fees.

If I ever do it again I'm going after pets, which are property, that ought to get their attention.

My experience is similar. All you get from the small claims court is a judgement, no guarantees you will ever see what the court says you are entitled to, just one more tool you can use to try to collect, but you have to know how to use it. The court will not play role of collection agency, but you are welcome to proceed with other legal actions - of course at your own cost unless you win another judgement that says you are owed those costs. I am not very likely to ever try that approach again. Only things that can be easily taken away from anyone are results of not paying taxes - federal, state, local..., and any secured property by a loan contract with proper lien documentation. Most anything else takes more work to try to acquire
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
failing to pay a small claims judgement will allow the court to place a lien on company assets. i dont know what the threshold is for small claims in his jurisdiction, but i was in one that was $2500. if it goes beyond the threshold then it moves up to std courts.

calif has a $10k bond. first thing i'd do is file a claim on it, immediately.

10k won't repull it, but it's a start. then you sue him civilly for the remainder.
calif has a $5k limit on small claims court, so it's not going to be small claims.

here's the deal. you don't know where it's damaged. so you cut them at the lb,
and see what side is bad. probably both, but if not, then you put a box in,
repull, and hypress with 600volt heat shrink or 600 volt cold shrink.
not a megger, a PI test is more appropriate.

done by a licensed contractor, with California licensed electricians.
they need to have a state issued photo ID as a journeyman, or be an
apprentice in a state indentured apprenticeship. they will have a card
to that effect.

and after you've collected his bond, and sued him, and there isn't any money,
you can deduct it as a bad debt at tax time, and write it off.

and until he settles with his bond company, he's out of business.
nobody will bond him, and i bet he doesn't have $10k to self bond.
folks with duct tape and goop don't have spare change, usually.
 
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