Who's responsible for replacing material stolen from jobsite?

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DaveBowden

Senior Member
Location
St Petersburg FL
Situation:
Home remodel. Customer wants high end solid brass wallplates. Builder says get them here so we won't have any delays at trim out ( that ws in February). Purchase materials - $2600 - deliver to job, Hide in locked (after hours- open during the day) garage. Invoice builder and get paid for items. Can't install plates because painter isn't finished. Builder's laborer cleans garage and puts plates right in front of door for everyone driving down the alley to see. Plates disappear. Builder's superintendant says order new ones we'll pay for them. Buy replacements - $1400- invoice builder. 2 weeks later go to builder's office and ask if they got the invoice. Secretary digs thru job folder and finds it filed away already. I'm not happy.
My question is do you agree with me that the builder is responsible for the cost of the replacements?
Forgot to mention one of the builder's laborers was sentenced to 15 years in prison for dealing in stolen property while he was on probation a few weeks after plates disappeared. The builder had fired him for falsifying his timecard about a week before the plates vanished.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
I vote HOLD the Builder, General Contractor responsible. You were following his instructions to acquire the very expensive brass wall plates. Items with a high scrap value require extra security.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
If they had already paid you for the material, they were the builder's property at the time they were stolen.

But did you get something in writing saying they would pay for the replacements? Or was it oral? That's the only place I can see a sticky point. He can deny agreeing to pay.

If he will man up, tell him to tell his secretary to pay the bill.
 

DaveBowden

Senior Member
Location
St Petersburg FL
I'm to the point on this job where I don't care if I ever get another job for this guy, so I'm definitely going to hold him responsible. I'm sure if the brass hinges on the job had been stolen he wouldn"t expect the hinge company to replace them for free. The only difference I see is that the hinge salesman wasn't responsible for installing them.
Fortunately, my daughter is a collections attorney and my proposal he signed says he agrees to pay attorney's costs. Maybe she can make some money off this job.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Situation:Home remodel. Customer wants high end solid brass wallplates. Builder says get them here so we won't have any delays at trim out ( that ws in February). Purchase materials - $2600 - deliver to job, Hide in locked (after hours- open during the day) garage.
I vote HOLD the Builder, General Contractor responsible. You were following his instructions to acquire the very expensive brass wall plates. Items with a high scrap value require extra security.
I probably would try to get the builder to pay for these wall plates but I don't think I would store these on site until needed. Anything not in a gang box and chained to a steel column will probably walk off.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
It is contractors responsibility period.

The stickey point is you really can't be paid for something not delivered to the site.
If the person in control of the job took possion and placed them behind lock and key then they are responsible.
GC laboror moves them and they disapear it is the GC problem now.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Situation:
Home remodel. Customer wants high end solid brass wallplates. Builder says get them here so we won't have any delays at trim out ( that ws in February). Purchase materials - $2600 - deliver to job, Hide in locked (after hours- open during the day) garage. Invoice builder and get paid for items. Can't install plates because painter isn't finished. Builder's laborer cleans garage and puts plates right in front of door for everyone driving down the alley to see. Plates disappear. Builder's superintendant says order new ones we'll pay for them. Buy replacements - $1400- invoice builder. 2 weeks later go to builder's office and ask if they got the invoice. Secretary digs thru job folder and finds it filed away already. I'm not happy.
My question is do you agree with me that the builder is responsible for the cost of the replacements?
Forgot to mention one of the builder's laborers was sentenced to 15 years in prison for dealing in stolen property while he was on probation a few weeks after plates disappeared. The builder had fired him for falsifying his timecard about a week before the plates vanished.

he told you to replace them, and he'd pay for it. now, if it isn't in writing,
then his integrity is the only thing you have to work with.

it's possible a mistake was made, and it was filed by someone in the office
without knowledge of the situation.

call the man up, and talk to him in real time. don't email. ask him if he's going
to pay you for the replacement plates. see what he says.

until you do that, you are just spinning....
 

TobyD

Senior Member
If the material was secured to the structure then I think the builder is responsible for loss or damages.I for one have had theft on several projects.If I choose to leave material on a job and it comes up missing then I fell like it's my loss.If I understand what you have written then I would tend to think the builder would be the one to re-place the items stolen.
 
This doesn't seem like a hard problem- EC sells plates to the GC and delivers them. GC accepts plates and pays for them. If the GC then throws them in the lake, fine. But... if the GC also wants the brass plates installed, they have to deliver them to the installer. All the earlier transactions don't matter.
 

CT Tom

Member
Location
Connecticut USA
I'll ask you the same question my attorney asked me 5 years ago: "Do you have a signed delivery receipt from the builder?"

Ran into this with a material bill for wire, $8-900 iirc, so in the end I just ate it and moved on.

If it leaves your possession and isn't installed, it could become a sticking point.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
It is contractors responsibility period.

The stickey point is you really can't be paid for something not delivered to the site.
If the person in control of the job took possion and placed them behind lock and key then they are responsible.
GC laboror moves them and they disapear it is the GC problem now.

Did the GC ever accept the material? IMO, once he accepts it, it is his problem.

The issue I see is that there does not appear to have been a clear transfer of ownership from the EC to the GC. Hiding them in the garage does not appear to me to be a transfer of ownership, but rather a security precaution the EC took it upon himself to engage in.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Did the GC ever accept the material? IMO, once he accepts it, it is his problem.

The issue I see is that there does not appear to have been a clear transfer of ownership from the EC to the GC. Hiding them in the garage does not appear to me to be a transfer of ownership, but rather a security precaution the EC took it upon himself to engage in.

Can you prove you got them on the site? If so then I assume you also have a receipt for purchasing them. It can be seen as a transfer of assets from you to the job. If you do it again then its an extra and you should have had something in writing. Since they accepted them and put them in a secure location I would think this is a GC problem. Give them the bill and demand payment. It does not mater who is on the job or their background. It matters that the material was delivered and properly received by the GC. Beat them up till you get paid. The worst that can happen is they will not pay and you do no more work for them.

In the future do not abandon material on the job and put in your contracts that material delivered is considered billable and installed. Abandonment is anything not within your physical control. It was not a good idea to warehouse material on an unsecured location no mater how convenient it may be. Take pictures of jobs daily. Tell them its to showcase your workmanship online!
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Can you prove you got them on the site? If so then I assume you also have a receipt for purchasing them. It can be seen as a transfer of assets from you to the job. If you do it again then its an extra and you should have had something in writing. Since they accepted them and put them in a secure location I would think this is a GC problem. Give them the bill and demand payment. It does not mater who is on the job or their background. It matters that the material was delivered and properly received by the GC. Beat them up till you get paid. The worst that can happen is they will not pay and you do no more work for them.

In the future do not abandon material on the job and put in your contracts that material delivered is considered billable and installed. Abandonment is anything not within your physical control. It was not a good idea to warehouse material on an unsecured location no mater how convenient it may be. Take pictures of jobs daily. Tell them its to showcase your workmanship online!

The key is whether the GC accepted the material, and thus accepted responsibility for it. The initial post seemed to suggest that never actually happened. "Hiding" material in a garage seems to me to be something the EC did on his own. If so, it is likely his problem.

It is not clear from the posts that the GC ever knew the material was even there.

The GC paid for them, but that does not make them responsible for the physical security of the material.

IMO, anyone that accepts a verbal order for the purchase of anything from a GC is just asking for this kind of trouble. Put it in writing. It does not have to be anything elaborate or time consuming.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Around here, until it is installed it is the sub contractors problem.

Once installed it is the GCs or the customers problem.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Can you prove you got them on the site? If so then I assume you also have a receipt for purchasing them. It can be seen as a transfer of assets from you to the job. If you do it again then its an extra and you should have had something in writing. Since they accepted them and put them in a secure location I would think this is a GC problem. Give them the bill and demand payment. It does not mater who is on the job or their background. It matters that the material was delivered and properly received by the GC. Beat them up till you get paid. The worst that can happen is they will not pay and you do no more work for them.

In the future do not abandon material on the job and put in your contracts that material delivered is considered billable and installed. Abandonment is anything not within your physical control. It was not a good idea to warehouse material on an unsecured location no mater how convenient it may be. Take pictures of jobs daily. Tell them its to showcase your workmanship online!
I don't agree that just because something is delivered that it is considered to be "installed". It may or may not be considered to change ownership once it is on the project site, but if still in packaging it is not installed.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
He was suggesting that ECs write that into their contracts and that could be fine but in my opinion no GC with a clue would sign it.
I wouldn't agree or sign it if I were a GC. That could mean the 2000 amp gear still on pallets but at the site is considered installed, I guess it still may have to pass inspection, but will it necessarily fail in this condition? It doesn't really present any electrical hazards in that condition.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Purchase materials - $2600 - deliver to job, Hide in locked (after hours- open during the day) garage. Invoice builder and get paid for items. Can't install plates because painter isn't finished. Builder's laborer cleans garage and puts plates right in front of door for everyone driving down the alley to see. Plates disappear. Builder's superintendant says order new ones we'll pay for them. Buy replacements - $1400- invoice builder.
Around here, until it is installed it is the sub contractors problem. Once installed it is the GCs or the customers problem.
It works pretty much the same around here. An item belongs to the sub until installed.This is kind of an unusual situation. The items in question have been delivered to the job site and paid for by the GC ( ownership) before they are stollen. Now materials that belong to the GC are stollen and his superindentant wished more items ordered and says they will pay for them. Sounds like this would have called for a change order for additional materials. But even a verbal contract can be binding if everyone admits to what actaually happened. Since the laborer that probably stole these items worked for the GC that is kind of a game changer.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Can't install plates because painter isn't finished.
This is one of those things that upsets me. If it's time for trim out I don't care if the painter is finished are not. I install cover plates and call for a final inspection ( job over). I don't need paint to get a final. Painters should have screw drivers. You don't normally calculated enough man hours to work at the convenience of other trades unless it's T&M. It sounds like the GC was willing to go ahead and pay for the these cover plates that could not be installed ( for some reason) which means they belong to the GC.
 
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