Inspector requiring kitchen counters (and cabinets) to be installed.

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FREDKOOP

Member
Location
Denver, CO USA
I have a situation where I did a house remodel, including full kitchen remodel. When doing the final inspection the inspector said that the counters had to be installed in order to do the inspection. The home owners ran out of money due to some unanticipated construction cost and cannot afford to buy the counters and cabinets at this time. The installation meets code for countertops (210.52 (C)(1) through (C)(5) and for wall space general requirements (with counters not there). The inspector would not or could not point out any violations of the code, only that the counters had to be installed in order for him to inspect. When pressed the head electrical inspector stated the we were violation of "NEC 2011- 210.52 (A) -(C) 5" and that "Cabinets and counters will need to be installed."

Thoughts?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
My take would be that since there are not countertops, there is no NEC requirement for outlets beyond what would be needed for empty wall space.
But if there were approved plans as part of the permit process, I can see a problem.
Maybe amend the permit, with the plan to pull a new permit when the cabinets and countertops get installed? That would give the inspector a second crack at the electrical.
Or fill in with very cheap dummy cabinets and countertop, with the materials to be changed later?
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I ... When pressed the head electrical inspector stated the we were violation of "NEC 2011- 210.52 (A) -(C) 5" and that "Cabinets and counters will need to be installed."

Is she concerned the installation is dangerous to energize without the countertops - or just that the inspection can't be done with out a surface - because they can't verify the ????? dimension?

Either way, I'd guess the Head is stuck and won't give up - ever, no matter what.

I'd probably ask if they can screw down 1/2" plywood temporaries. Useless, waste of money, should fit right in with a stuck head inspector.

ice
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Well I will give my opinion on it as popular as it might be. It is very hard for an inspector to sign off on something that's not there. He assumes some liability in determining proper compliance and if someone changes the counter layout after he approves something only to end up a violation then he looks bad. Most inspectors don't want that issue.

Do a plywood counter which is cheap, throw some plywood on them and call for final, nothing says the counters have to be anything otherwises as long as you fasten it down. Worth a try...
 

FREDKOOP

Member
Location
Denver, CO USA
Why cant't the inspector verify the dimensions. If we stipulate that the receptacles are for countertop spaces. The code, 210.52 (C), say "receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52 (C)(1) through (C)(5)" For countertop spaces not at countertops. Countertop spacing is a more rigorous requirement than the general wall space requirements, it's not like we are trying to dupe the inspector.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Well let me just say this...and I know you are an honest man. However, as an inspector myself for many years not all contractors are honest. While you may say one thing, someone else may do something else to the contrary and the inspector needs to cover his/her's rear end so to speak.

Don't take it personal...inspectors are being sued these days. Signing something off as compliant when a final means final is serious business for an inspectors career.
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
What would be the problem with waiting until the counters are finished even if that takes several years? Just get the final once it is complete.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
If it is a requirement per AHJ then you have to follow, unless the BO oks with out cabinet installation.

At the same time I don't see why the inspector is fussy about cabinets. How can cabinets and or counter top be installed in a way that may not be code compliant. What is his worry? if you install them what will he check for?

Locally, permits will expire 180 days after the last inspection then you can extend it for another six months. Can you do the same with your permit?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Well I will give my opinion on it as popular as it might be. It is very hard for an inspector to sign off on something that's not there. He assumes some liability in determining proper compliance and if someone changes the counter layout after he approves something only to end up a violation then he looks bad. Most inspectors don't want that issue.

Do a plywood counter which is cheap, throw some plywood on them and call for final, nothing says the counters have to be anything otherwises as long as you fasten it down. Worth a try...
Hard to sign off on something that is not there? What is the code violation for receptacles mounted on a wall approximately 4 feet high and spaced according to countertop receptacle spacing requirements?

Change something later? That could happen even if those cabinets/counters were installed for inspection - people sometimes don't like things even when brand new and want changes.

Only good argument I have seen is if there were pre approved plans that had these cabinets/counters in them and the finished product doesn't have them, but even then it was also suggested to follow proper procedures for plans changes.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Well I will give my opinion on it as popular as it might be. It is very hard for an inspector to sign off on something that's not there.
No it isn't.
He assumes some liability in determining proper compliance
No he doesn't. At least not in the state I live; which is the same as the OP.
and if someone changes the counter layout after he approves something only to end up a violation then he looks bad.
No he doesn't. That in not something he can control.
Most inspectors don't want that issue.
Good inspectors know where their authority starts and ends.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
No it isn't.
No he doesn't. At least not in the state I live; which is the same as the OP.
No he doesn't. That in not something he can control.
Good inspectors know where their authority starts and ends.

How can you say that.
An inspector cannot verify compliance without a finished product.
Do inspectors final unfinished things I am sure they do. But a good inspectior should not final a job not complete.
In my neck of the woods they will grant a temporary final and allow it's use under the condition that you finish and the dept can withdraw the final.



If payment from the Homeowner is held up because of this that would be a breach by the home owner. The HO needs to install some plywood couters as per plan and call it a day.

For the EC demand the job finished and get paid. Always assert in writing you are always willing and able.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Hard to sign off on something that is not there? What is the code violation for receptacles mounted on a wall approximately 4 feet high and spaced according to countertop receptacle spacing requirements?

Change something later? That could happen even if those cabinets/counters were installed for inspection - people sometimes don't like things even when brand new and want changes.

Only good argument I have seen is if there were pre approved plans that had these cabinets/counters in them and the finished product doesn't have them, but even then it was also suggested to follow proper procedures for plans changes.
Hey friend...I'm not the inspector here..lol. I am only giving you the perspective of an inspector. I have no idea what your layout is, I do know that your kitchen has or intended to have countertops and this inspector chooses to see them in place. You are not going to change his mind debating me fella...give him a call and preach your case...good luck.

Are you seriously wanting an inspector to say "ok"...on the intended receptacles for the countertop because they meet normal wall space requirements knowing the intent is to serve a countertop?..again what may seem obvious can change. I know plenty of times one of my inspectors approved countertop receptacles only to find that counters were changed on final (shifted) only to end up not being within 2' of the sink...more like 2 1/2' then wanted to cry the blues...code says 2'... not my problem but they would still call and complain to city and go so far as say the inspector approved it at rough in...wrong. If the counter is in (cost spent) then less chance for change. Just trying to give you the inspectors view.

Again probably not your situation but just some incite into an inspector thinking. CYA in all cases.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
Counters, what counters?

Counters, what counters?

It would be very difficult for receptacles meeting the counter top spacing requirements not to meet the blank wall requirements. They would be mounted below 5-? Ft. AFF and within the 12 Ft. spacing requirement. So where is the NEC issue?

Have the inspector write down the code violation reference.

For an occupancy permit, the kitchen probably needs a sink, stove, and refrigerator. I'll bet no building code calls out minimum counter space.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
It would be very difficult for receptacles meeting the counter top spacing requirements not to meet the blank wall requirements. They would be mounted below 5-? Ft. AFF and within the 12 Ft. spacing requirement. So where is the NEC issue?

Have the inspector write down the code violation reference.

For an occupancy permit, the kitchen probably needs a sink, stove, and refrigerator. I'll bet no building code calls out minimum counter space.

How would those recepts qualify for wall space at that height?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
FWIW here is how I see it.

There is nothing in the NEC that can answer or even addresses this question. The inspection process / requirements are outside the scope of the NEC unless the area has specifically adopted Article 80 hidden away in annex H at the rear of the code book.

That said it is entirely up to the areas discretion what they require to be in place for a final.

A bad situation for you indeed, for us final payment is usually contingent on a final inspection. :(
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
How would those recepts qualify for wall space at that height?

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets.
....
(A) General Provisions.
....
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
....
(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in or on floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.

(4) Countertop Receptacles. Receptacles installed for countertop surfaces as specified in 210.52(C) shall not be considered as the receptacles required by 210.52(A).

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Stipulation 1: we all agree that receptacles meeting the horizontal spacing requirement for counter top receptacles meet the horizontal spacing requirement for "bare wall" receptacles because 4 feet is less than 12 feet and the exceptions for countertop receptacles spacing generally do not span more than 8 feet (4+8=12).

Stipulation 2: we all agree it is customary to place "bare wall" receptacles at 18 inches -- 20 inches above (or my hammer's handle length, ...) AFF. However there is no height requirement specified in this section. It is possible that there is a 5-? foot rule somewhere else in the code that disqualifies receptacles above that height from being counted as "bare wall" receptacles, but I am too lazy to look for that now. In any event the receptacles mounted within normal range for "countertop" receptacles are below 5-? feet. Thus they can be counted as "bare-wall" receptacles.

Stipulation 3:[/B] The SABCs can or must service all wall or floor mounted receptacles.

Therefore: if there are no countertops or cabinets, these receptacles can fill the requirements of "bare-wall" receptacles.

And: if countertops on cabinets exist, no "bare-wall" receptacles are required where the cabinets are.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
... For an occupancy permit, the kitchen probably needs a sink, stove, and refrigerator. ...
Curiousity Q;
I'm not familiar with Mainland American nor the intricacies of living amongst the compressed hordes.
I have a situation where I did a house remodel, including full kitchen remodel.
It's a remodel. Couldn't they already be living there - no occupancy permit required? As in it already has one from 1955.

ice
 
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